The American Constitution

[ElricMorlockin]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Yorick, you're getting into the deep end of the pool a bit. Using your definition of "Empire," everything imperial has been omitted. Of course, using your definition, a poor one, Texas is an "empire," as is Canada. The UK obviously is. Oh, I know it is becomimg more akin to states in a union, but just ask the old folks of Wales, Scotland, and Ireland how they came to be part of the "United Kingdom." I find it really funny you cited a King and a Queen as non-examples of an Emperor. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] Monarchy form of government is the exact nit that was being picked. Fact is, the US is not "imperial" nor "colonial" in any traditional way. It is a very powerful nation that tries, and sometimes succeeds, to move the whole world to its whims. That, however, does not an empire make. The US has an incredible, nearly impecable, history of giving back or otherwise releasing territories that come under its control. Phillipines, Cuba, Japan are examples. In my mind, imperial powers do not do this. Now, if the supremacy and pervasiveness of American culture the world over is a bone you want to gnaw, it is a fine concern. But, the spread of these things are through private channels, not government action. Disney, Pepsi, MTV, Hollywood, and Microsoft have done more to indoctrinate the world into the American hegemony than the State Department, President, or military ever would or could. But, that too does not an empire make. "Empire" contains the notion that one nation's government or rule is extended over other sovereigns. That is NOT the case with the USA -- moreso NOT that case than with any other powerful nation in history, I would argue. NOT colonizing or establishing an empire is one of the very basic tenets of this country. Other than bullying and cajoling, which the USA does very well, it is not an Empire and does not rule abroad.

Precisely!
Yorick, if the only terminology you can come up with to describe some of our activities is an empire, then perhaps we have a better understanding than either of us think we do. However, if the intent is to paint us in the same light as a true conquering and controling empire, as obviously noted numerous times in history, then there are *vast* differences. *If* so, then you will understand my disdain for your opinion, since it is then accurate only in your mind.
Note, you do not see me saying we are perfect, our actions are always perfect, our intentions are always perfect and thus we always get a perfect result. But intentions are the heart of any action (saying this I am very familiar with the saying, "the path to hell is paved with good intentions").
That said, there is no intention of becoming an international conquering empire. Quite simply, whether you choose to believe it or not, the *VAST* majority of us, are not in the least bit interested in the true meaning of the word empire. Indeed, if you bother to read our history it has almost been the mission of this country to fight such at many given opportunities that came about. This coupled with an insular outlook on the rest of the globe, and with damn good reason. We are a country of immigrants, who came here fleeing empires, imperialism et al and that mindset does still exist with many of us who have generations of roots in this country. We listen to the stories of what it was like for our father in laws having fled Soviet dominated Eastern Germany for instance, all the while risking being shot for wanting to leave. We listened to grandpa having experienced the death camps of an empire, or witnessing the viciousness of how fellow soldiers had been treated by another empire. The key word here is we *listened*, and thus internalized the message. That being, we dont want anything to do with some morons imperial aspirations or the end results of that aspiration.
Thus to paint Bush as an emperor is just plain silly. While I am not the greatest raging fan of George W. Bush, I am sincere enough to assert and understand that this man isn't a Fascist, Nazi or whatever other unsavory title is placed on his head by people who disagree with him. In fact, the ones who *do* disagree, more often than not, show all the intolerance, lambasting, and fact skewing more in line with who and what the Nazi's actually were. To dislike a politician or one of their policies is one thing, to go to the extremes that a certain segment of our population has is quite another.
Indeed this goes right into both themes you chose to begin as topic lines here. My stance was and still is, that I disdain the notion of someone feeling the need to control every aspect of my life via legislation. In actuality, Yorick it says more about those wanting the control more than it does about the people whom they are trying to control. Whether it is you or George Bush proposing it, doesnt matter a hill of beans to me at all. The bottom line, is what I am interested in.
You mentioned that NYC was "filled with people who didnt want to be there." What I say to that is "Oh fricking well"? You *choose* to live there, no one forced you to, via a gun barrel or elsewise. NY'ers choose their system of taxes government, and what they tolderate from other NY'ers. To then complain about the end result is.... to be nice, amusing as hell. In addition, the last time I checked NYC wasnt the United States, in fact its a dinky part of what is over here. Personally, having been there once, I feel absolutely no need to ever go back. Its not my cup of tea nor the lifestyle I would want my kids to be forced to live in. You want to know what the hell the United States is all about? Try visiting some of us salt of the earth people out here in the midwest. Wouldnt it be great if a persons word was their bond, that people meant what they said and said what they meant? If so, then you understand why I love it here so much. When this country is in a down and out swing, the heart and soul of this country keeps it together. It has been the case since the Northwest Territories became the modern day midwest, via multiple states. Believe it or not Yorick, there is still a pioneering spirit that exists in my neck of the woods. That being a mentality, that is lacking in any and all of our eastern coast cities. I love this country, because generally speaking I love the people living in it for the most part. I love the "can-do" attitude, the pushes progress forward, while solidifying where we came from. Really, you *should* take the time to experience it yourself. Being a cynical person, you likely wont believe your own eyes or ears.
Tying this into your theme regarding empire. Hopefully you understand better where I am coming from. People out here at least, want nothing to do with making another country subservient to us, in every conceivable way. But that isnt for me to convince you of, you will believe what fits your need. More importantly it is what you convince yourself of. If that convincing, tells you that we are imperialistic bastards, then you missed the forest because those damned pesty trees got in the way.

[Night Stalker]

Surely then Elric, you can appreciate the irony that, in America's quest to become the refuge from Empire - we have become Empire. We happen to be unlike any other Empire known to history (though we are very similar to our parent nation Great Britain), but we are an empire.

[Donut]

It's an Empire Jim, but not as we know it!

Originally posted by ElricMorlockin: We listen to the stories of what it was like for our father in laws having fled Soviet dominated Eastern Germany for instance, all the while risking being shot for wanting to leave. We listened to grandpa having experienced the death camps of an empire, or witnessing the viciousness of how fellow soldiers had been treated by another empire. The key word here is we *listened*, and thus internalized the message. That being, we dont want anything to do with some morons imperial aspirations or the end results of that aspiration.

Then by the same logic that you use, The Bolsheviks in Russia, Who were often opressed by the Czar and/or raised on tales of czarist opression would themselves have never created an "evil empire". Yet what did the soviet union become?

You're essentially saying:
"We won't won't do bad things because we are so good".
That would be nice it were true.

Originally posted by ElricMorlockin: Thus to paint Bush as an emperor is just plain silly. While I am not the greatest raging fan of George W. Bush, I am sincere enough to assert and understand that this man isn't a Fascist, Nazi or whatever other unsavory title is placed on his head by people who disagree with him. In fact, the ones who *do* disagree, more often than not, show all the intolerance, lambasting, and fact skewing more in line with who and what the Nazi's actually were. To dislike a politician or one of their policies is one thing, to go to the extremes that a certain segment of our population has is quite another.

*blows dust off the Straw man*

Who said that emperors all have to be fascists?

George Bush can be an emperor and NOT BE A FASCIST at the same time.

(although I would argue that america, Being a corperate oligarchy, does not in fact have an emperor in any meaningful sense of the world)

Originally posted by ElricMorlockin: You mentioned that NYC was "filled with people who didnt want to be there." What I say to that is "Oh fricking well"? You *choose* to live there, no one forced you to, via a gun barrel or elsewise. NY'ers choose their system of taxes government, and what they tolderate from other NY'ers. To then complain

I cannot afford to buy a house in this area, and I doubt ever will be.
Why?
Cos the house prices are ASSTRONOMICAL and so is the cost of liveing.

This means that I may have to move somewhere Where houses are cheap.
And If I did not have the qualifications to get a decent job etc (through the fact that I may have not been middle class, an immigrant or something)
I may never have the money to move anywhere else.

Think on that.

HTH.
TIA.
HAND.

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Surely then Elric, you can appreciate the irony that, in America's quest to become the refuge from Empire - we have become Empire. We happen to be unlike any other Empire known to history (though we are very similar to our parent nation Great Britain), but we are an empire.

McDonalds is the latter day equivalent of the East-India company.

Rather than temporal colonisation, now we have corporate colonisation.
Or globalisation.

Wow, Look at all the homophones in that sentence, amazing eh?

HTH.
TIA.
HAND.

[ 05-31-2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Eisenschwarz ]

[Yorick]

Since when did empire = evil? We do have two words that describe an evil empire and they are "evil" and "empire". Whether America is "evil" is a totally different discussion.

An Empire is amoral. It is simply a state of being. It is important to be self aware and realise what one IS however. Honesty in self evaluation is paramount. The pitfalls of EMPIRES are to be avoided. One can look at the aforementioned Athenian and Roman Empires and LEARN by seeing the similarities to America.

Athens especially. The Athenian Empire was a democracy that had a tiny area, yet is called an Empire. It ruled a varity of states that were initially allies. If an "ally" chose to be anything other than a democracy, Athens would invade and reinstall a "Athens friendly" democratic government.

Sound familiar?

[WillowIX]

I'm sorry to barge in. But isn't it time to perhaps make a new thread since it is obviuos this horse has been resurrected? This thread now has 250+ posts and counting. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-31-2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

[Yorick]

Here is the sequel