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Old 05-11-2002, 02:40 PM   #61
Dramnek_Ulk
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Is it unrealistic? No. People do it. You are in error to suggest something is unrealistic when it is practiced by millions. Either you don't understand the term 'unrealistic', or you have no awareness of the different value systems people hold.
[/QB]
First of all just because some people practise Celibacy does not mean that is something good. It goes against human nature to do this, the only way to get people to successfully follow this is to scare or find another way of making them do it, to this end we are told how “the world would be a better place” if we do or that we will go to hell if we don’t.
If 2 or more people of consenting people wish to have sex, and they are of legal age, why should we stop them?

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As far as cementing control goes, I wonder what reality you're living in? If sex cements anything it is the physical and spiritual union between two people. The ultimate manefestation of love. Giving yourself to another human with abandon and totality.
[/QB]
That's what I said the purpose of sex in itself was. Although it evolved for reproduction, we humans use it to cement social relationships.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
When it's reduced to mere "leisure activities" as you so blithely put it, and given away to whoever you have a relationship with, or meet in a club, or give dollars to; that union and gift are of lesser significance, value and impact. By promoting one life partner, the Church seek to enhance the experience of oneness with another person.
[/QB]
Secular (civil service) marriage is better, that way it is removed from the ideological entwinements of religion.
And many churches church’s championing of marriage is blatant hypocracy when many will not support re-marrying divorcees or same sex marriages.
Also people all make mistakes, sometimes they make mistakes about people. They find they no longer wish to carry on a relationship, in such a case it is only right that they be allowed divorce. In times past people would soldier on with miserable marriages, the rise in divorces now reflects that people are freer to build better lives with people they actually love.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Have you ever been married Dramnek or are you talking from outside your sphere of experience yet again?

Let me tell you that sex with a condom is a rip off. It's faux sex. Like eating a meal with a balloon over your tounge. Is this what God wants us to experience? Diluted pleasure?

No.

[/QB]
Let me tell you that not using a condom is asking for it.
We cannot yet cure AIDS/HIV, even our most advanced drugs and medical technology can only hold it at bay, and the frequency of other STD’s is increasing all the time. You can get many STD’s not just though sex but also from other activities and contacts, you cannot ever be sure. But safe sex such as a condom can help to prevent this.
I’ve seen people dieing of AIDs and/or the related infections caused by weakening of the immune system, It’s not a pretty sight and you cannot expect monogamy to prevent this nor can you expect all people to be monogamous, the best way of preventing this is safe sex, like condoms. To reject a condom because “It's faux sex.” is pure selfishness.
Your argument also rests on the deontological idea that god exists and you must do what he says in the matters of sexual intercourse.
You cannot prove that god exists therefore your argument rests purely on the notion “of what god wants” even if a god did exist, you cannot claim to be able to reasonably interpret what it wants or even what it thinks.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What the Church teaches is that God wants the ultimate experience for humans. Truly experienced sex in a SAFE environment, where trust is fostered, health issues are not a concern, where intimate sensual communication is engaged in to unite, give joy and create new life from an act of love.

Every human born is the result of two humans making love. Think about it. Love - a positive - creating life, more positive.

It's beautiful.

The Church seeks to protect that beauty, to encourage people to live life to it's maximum potential, not throw away things willy nilly, getting shortchanged in the process.[/QB]
Sex is not innately special, to some people it is and they will only share it with someone who they dearly love. But to others it is fun and they wish to have as much fun as possible. Whether and/or how special sex is or not is a purely SUBJECTIVE view.
Ultimately it is his or her choice, and who is anyone to infringe upon that choice by telling them that it "bad" for them to have sex before marriage or something like that?
 
Old 05-11-2002, 03:14 PM   #62
Dramnek_Ulk
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You belittle yourself. My concern is for you as an individual. Your own happiness and wellbeing. If you truly see the world as you describe, and only desire the removal of joy from others lives, I shudder to think what a bleak state of mind you're in.

Nobody is perfect. Culture is a collection of imperfect people. That imperfection is part of what gives uniqueness and beauty though.

Criticising culture does nothing. People will do what they want. If you want to be an impetus for change you need to do it with constructive positivity. Positive impetus is so much stronger than negative.

You need to create an alternative, instead of trying to remove that which already exists. If films are shallow, create deeper ones. If food is of poor qualitiy, make a better product. Don't tell people not to eat, or not to be entertained. That's unrealistic and doomed to failure.

By definition, people gravitate towards the magnetic (positive), not the repellent (negative).

You also need to show why a person should change. In none of your posts have you given any indication as to what your ideology has done for you.

I've asked you directly, yet you refuse to answer, hiding behind an automated "that's an ad hominem attack" response.

That is my concern. You are clearly an intelligent human being who chooses to see darkness where I see light, or at least a light speckled shadow. THAT is what concerns me. YOU. [img]smile.gif[/img]

*hugs Dramnek*[/QB]
Mmmmmm, Food for my ego.

But There is no darkness, nor is there light, there is only humanity and how we shape and define the universe.
We give our lives meaning through our goals and deeds, Ultimately these will be for nothing, but we still must strive to achieve for that is all we can do as humans.
For one day we will cease to be, our consciousness gone forever. How we wish for eternal life.

Perhaps one day through genetic engineering and cybernetics we will improve on what nature has evolved of us, even now we could at least attempt the basics of this if someone had the funding.
To make ourselves as perfect as anything can be that is all we can do, But we will only find that through embracing and acknowledging our imperfections and ultimately removing them, but how shall we do this? By secular or by religious ends? Ultimately that is your choice.
 
Old 05-11-2002, 05:56 PM   #63
Talthyr Malkaviel
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
 

Join Date: August 31, 2001
Location: Land of the Britons
Age: 37
Posts: 3,224
Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
First of all just because some people practise Celibacy does not mean that is something good. It goes against human nature to do this, the only way to get people to successfully follow this is to scare or find another way of making them do it, to this end we are told how “the world would be a better place” if we do or that we will go to hell if we don’t.
If 2 or more people of consenting people wish to have sex, and they are of legal age, why should we stop them?
Against human nature? A lot of things go against human nature, and human nature is constantly changing so maybe Celibacy is an optional branch.
Human nature is not stiff and unbending, otherwise it would be extinct, and if you mean it goes against basic survival instinct, I agree, but a lot of things do that we have done.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
That's what I said the purpose of sex in itself was. Although it evolved for reproduction, we humans use it to cement social relationships.
Evolved for reproduction?? It is reproduction, that sounds like youtr saying that at first sex was just done until it adapted and suddenly babies were magically born.
Cement social relationships? Are you sure?? Maybe it only feels that way because your genes make you feel that way, in fact this is highly likely as if there was no seeming pleasure in sex or sexual stimulation our race would be doomed.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
Secular (civil service) marriage is better, that way it is removed from the ideological entwinements of religion.
And many churches church’s championing of marriage is blatant hypocracy when many will not support re-marrying divorcees or same sex marriages.
It isn't hypocrisy because they believe that it is impossible to take life long vows more than once, which is exactly what you do in a wedding, no, in fact they believe it is eternal vows.
I'm all for same sex marriages if they want them, but I'm not a christian so it is their practice, not mine.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
Let me tell you that not using a condom is asking for it.
Not if they practice monogamy, which, surprise surprise, they do.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
You can get many STD’s not just though sex but also from other activities and contacts, you cannot ever be sure. But safe sex such as a condom can help to prevent this.
I’ve seen people dieing of AIDs and/or the related infections caused by weakening of the immune system, It’s not a pretty sight and you cannot expect monogamy to prevent this nor can you expect all people to be monogamous, the best way of preventing this is safe sex, like condoms. To reject a condom because “It's faux sex.” is pure selfishness.
Uuuumm, no you can only get STD's by infected blood getting into someone elses blood stream, or through sexual activity.
You can't exactly get it from hugging people.
You're correct that you can't expect everyone to be monogamous, that's fairly obvious since not everyone is catholic or monogamous for other reasons, but yes, if both partners have followed Catholic rules, they can be sure of not catching STD's, condom or no.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
Your argument also rests on the deontological idea that god exists and you must do what he says in the matters of sexual intercourse.
You cannot prove that god exists therefore your argument rests purely on the notion “of what god wants” even if a god did exist, you cannot claim to be able to reasonably interpret what it wants or even what it thinks.
Yes, well he can't prove God exists, you can't prove he doesn't, but Yorick's allowed to choose to believe that God does, and if that is what they believe, they will believe it, regardless of how much you tell them they can't prove it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
Sex is not innately special, to some people it is and they will only share it with someone who they dearly love. But to others it is fun and they wish to have as much fun as possible. Whether and/or how special sex is or not is a purely SUBJECTIVE view.
Ultimately it is his or her choice, and who is anyone to infringe upon that choice by telling them that it "bad" for them to have sex before marriage or something like that?
Well, if these people are Catholic, then they wouldn't do it in the first place, and if they aren't then that has nothing to do with the Catholic argument.
__________________
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Old 05-11-2002, 06:39 PM   #64
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
First of all just because some people practise Celibacy does not mean that is something good. It goes against human nature to do this, the only way to get people to successfully follow this is to scare or find another way of making them do it, to this end we are told how “the world would be a better place” if we do or that we will go to hell if we don’t.
If 2 or more people of consenting people wish to have sex, and they are of legal age, why should we stop them?
We don't stop them. THe church doesn't practice mind control. Chrisianity is actually a liberating faith. You can do what you like. The church generally puts forth things that it believes are beneficial to life and relationships and happiness. This knowledge is tried and tested over generations, and added to as the years pass. Collective knowledge. Every "Law" of Gods has a physical benefit and a spiritual benefit.

For example:
Do not murder. Obvious.
Do not envy. Again, obvious, envy is self destructive and hampers relationship with the envy and removes an individuals focus.

As far as celibacy goes, there are many times in a life when one may have to practice celibacy. A spouse may be ill or away. If one wants that relationship to continue on the spouses return/healing one is often advised to be celibate.

Celibacy is also not only the domain of the religious. Sportsmen practice it. Some practice it to 'keep their energy'. To each their own. Who are you to criticise anothers values?

People go to a church often for guidance. Because they may need relationship counselling, healing in some fashion. Good churches can be spiritual and emotional hospitals. Why criticise them for doing their job. Can you do better?

Quote:
That's what I said the purpose of sex in itself was. Although it evolved for reproduction, we humans use it to cement social relationships.
I agree with Talthyr. You are obviously are not aware of the ludicrous contradiction of this statement. Without reproduction there is no evolution. If it evolved into anything, it is evolving into a fun thing. Necessity drives evolution, not pleasantries. Still, why the male nipple? The female clitorus? These are not necessary for reproduction. Seems to me a God wanted us to enjoy the process, rather than letting it be instinctive, and hormonally driven, as with the animals.

Quote:
Secular (civil service) marriage is better, that way it is removed from the ideological entwinements of religion.
And many churches church’s championing of marriage is blatant hypocracy when many will not support re-marrying divorcees or same sex marriages.
Also people all make mistakes, sometimes they make mistakes about people. They find they no longer wish to carry on a relationship, in such a case it is only right that they be allowed divorce. In times past people would soldier on with miserable marriages, the rise in divorces now reflects that people are freer to build better lives with people they actually love.
Who are you to say what is better or worse? This is subjective. You are becoming what you criticise. This is hypocrisy Dramnek. For some, their religious faith holds them together. Others don't need that. Lucky them.

Were you aware I'm divorced? Were you aware I contribute to the ministry of a church? Were you aware homosexuals are more than welcome in my church?

It seems from your posts, you have little experience with the Christian Church. We all have our issues Dramnek. Some are more visable than others. An accepting Church accepts all, and lets God work stuff out with that person themselves.

Quote:
Let me tell you that not using a condom is asking for it.
We cannot yet cure AIDS/HIV, even our most advanced drugs and medical technology can only hold it at bay, and the frequency of other STD’s is increasing all the time. You can get many STD’s not just though sex but also from other activities and contacts, you cannot ever be sure. But safe sex such as a condom can help to prevent this.
I’ve seen people dieing of AIDs and/or the related infections caused by weakening of the immune system, It’s not a pretty sight and you cannot expect monogamy to prevent this nor can you expect all people to be monogamous, the best way of preventing this is safe sex, like condoms. To reject a condom because “It's faux sex.” is pure selfishness.
Your argument also rests on the deontological idea that god exists and you must do what he says in the matters of sexual intercourse.
No. It rests on what is the greater experience for me. The most wonderful sex I experienced, in extreme mind blowing regularity was with my wife. Monogamy, for me only made the experience better as the years went past. I didn't need a condom. Natural sex within Monogamy was a far better deal than faux sex, with a sensation numbing 'rubber glove' preventing true union, with a relative stranger.

If you're going to go sleeping around, then of course wear a condom. But that's not the only alternative. So, no, I'm not asking for it.

Quote:
You cannot prove that god exists therefore your argument rests purely on the notion “of what god wants” even if a god did exist, you cannot claim to be able to reasonably interpret what it wants or even what it thinks.
Speak for yourself. How can you presume to tell me what I can and cannot do? Again, a ludicrous statement with no factual or logical grounding. You cannot measure or experience what I do.

Now, You tell me that you can't claim be able to reasonablly interpret what it thinks. Fair enough, I won't argue that.
I believe I can. I believe he does exist, and communicates quite reguarly what is good for my life, and what isn't. No mistaking those messages.

This is my reality Dramnek. This is my truth. You cannot prove me wrong.

Quote:
Sex is not innately special, to some people it is and they will only share it with someone who they dearly love. But to others it is fun and they wish to have as much fun as possible. Whether and/or how special sex is or not is a purely SUBJECTIVE view.
Ultimately it is his or her choice, and who is anyone to infringe upon that choice by telling them that it "bad" for them to have sex before marriage or something like that?
You forgot to add a "TO ME". Sex is not innately special to you. Sex is inately special to me, and everyone I've been with, so what does that say about the two of us [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Again, throwing your subjectivity out there, who are you to say we're wrong. If people in a Church have collectively tried option A, and option B, some trying both, others one or the other, and the decision is reached that option B is a better path in pursuing happiness, who are you to criticise this? Millions of humans are in agreement on this subject. There's something to it. There's no smoke without a fire.

[ 05-11-2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 05-11-2002, 06:51 PM   #65
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You belittle yourself. My concern is for you as an individual. Your own happiness and wellbeing. If you truly see the world as you describe, and only desire the removal of joy from others lives, I shudder to think what a bleak state of mind you're in.

Nobody is perfect. Culture is a collection of imperfect people. That imperfection is part of what gives uniqueness and beauty though.

Criticising culture does nothing. People will do what they want. If you want to be an impetus for change you need to do it with constructive positivity. Positive impetus is so much stronger than negative.

You need to create an alternative, instead of trying to remove that which already exists. If films are shallow, create deeper ones. If food is of poor qualitiy, make a better product. Don't tell people not to eat, or not to be entertained. That's unrealistic and doomed to failure.

By definition, people gravitate towards the magnetic (positive), not the repellent (negative).

You also need to show why a person should change. In none of your posts have you given any indication as to what your ideology has done for you.

I've asked you directly, yet you refuse to answer, hiding behind an automated "that's an ad hominem attack" response.

That is my concern. You are clearly an intelligent human being who chooses to see darkness where I see light, or at least a light speckled shadow. THAT is what concerns me. YOU. [img]smile.gif[/img]

*hugs Dramnek*
Mmmmmm, Food for my ego.

But There is no darkness, nor is there light, there is only humanity and how we shape and define the universe.
We give our lives meaning through our goals and deeds, Ultimately these will be for nothing, but we still must strive to achieve for that is all we can do as humans.
For one day we will cease to be, our consciousness gone forever. How we wish for eternal life.

Perhaps one day through genetic engineering and cybernetics we will improve on what nature has evolved of us, even now we could at least attempt the basics of this if someone had the funding.
To make ourselves as perfect as anything can be that is all we can do, But we will only find that through embracing and acknowledging our imperfections and ultimately removing them, but how shall we do this? By secular or by religious ends? Ultimately that is your choice.[/QB][/QUOTE]Yet again you avoid the question, and post nihlistic generalisations proclaiming your perception as applicable for all.

You may see all is for nothing. Can you not see that your statment only applies to you, or whoever agrees with you? My life is not meaningless. It is a means for an end. I know I will live on after this.

I have never said you will live forever, never said your life has meaning. How can you say mine doesn't? Can you not see the blind mistruth in your words? You PRESUME to SPEAK for EVERYONE.

This is the main annoyance I have with you, while your nihlism is what concerns me.
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Old 05-11-2002, 06:55 PM   #66
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Dramnek, I should also add, that my belief system also includes the belief that my God loves you. Intensely. Whether you are aware or not, whether you reject that love or not. He loves you and wants you to know him.
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Old 05-11-2002, 09:13 PM   #67
caleb
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: April 10, 2001
Location: Tacoma, WA, U.S.A.
Age: 39
Posts: 2,615
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Show me one post where I have posted presuming to know why people believe, what their inner motivations are. Have I ever written down why athiests don't believe? No.
Here you go yorick

"Dramnek, let me fix up your post:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:

There is no point to my life, No meaning to my life. It will end with the cessation of consciousness and an eternal death.
And it is this what I am afraid of, and blind myself to with faith,
Faith in pessimism, Faith in the communist ideology, Faith trying to shoot down people's hope to make me feel better.
Faith in anything that lets me think that the promise of eternal life doesn't exist so that I'll feel a bit better if I miss out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what you meant to say wasn't it? You didn't mean to presume to know peoples motivations did you? I mean, you understand that unless you've walked a mile in someones shoes you can't possibly know their motives.

There may not be meaning to your life, but there is to mine, and millions upon millions of my fellow humans. So speak for yourself oh miserable, bitter, wet blanket."
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Old 05-11-2002, 11:39 PM   #68
Yorick
Very Mad Bird
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
Quote:
Originally posted by caleb:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Show me one post where I have posted presuming to know why people believe, what their inner motivations are. Have I ever written down why athiests don't believe? No.
Here you go yorick

"Dramnek, let me fix up your post:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:

There is no point to my life, No meaning to my life. It will end with the cessation of consciousness and an eternal death.
And it is this what I am afraid of, and blind myself to with faith,
Faith in pessimism, Faith in the communist ideology, Faith trying to shoot down people's hope to make me feel better.
Faith in anything that lets me think that the promise of eternal life doesn't exist so that I'll feel a bit better if I miss out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what you meant to say wasn't it? You didn't mean to presume to know peoples motivations did you? I mean, you understand that unless you've walked a mile in someones shoes you can't possibly know their motives.

There may not be meaning to your life, but there is to mine, and millions upon millions of my fellow humans. So speak for yourself oh miserable, bitter, wet blanket."
[/QUOTE]Caleb, need I point out that I did that to show what Dramnek was doing to me and those who believe like I do? It was making a point by reversing the situation Mr Smartybiscuit.
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Old 05-12-2002, 09:46 AM   #69
Dramnek_Ulk
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel:
Evolved for reproduction?? It is reproduction, that sounds like youtr saying that at first sex was just done until it adapted and suddenly babies were magically born.
Cement social relationships? Are you sure?? Maybe it only feels that way because your genes make you feel that way, in fact this is highly likely as if there was no seeming pleasure in sex or sexual stimulation our race would be doomed.
[/qb]
The first living creatures did not reproduce sexually. But sexual reproduction allows a greater combination of genes, thus allowing for more mutations. More mutations means more possibility of one that aids survival, It also allows for more complex life forms, thus Sexual reproduction became the method that survived best and produced the most dominant animals.
It’s perfectly possible for Sexual reproduction to occur without any pleasure whatsoever. But some Evolutionary Anthropologists (or Biologists?) think that taking pleasure from sex is very important for social species such as mankind, since it can help to from stable relationships between pairs, which allow for primitive societies to develop. Also taking pleasure from sex means that people will do it more often, thus increasing the chance of passing on their genes.

Quote:
Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel:
It isn't hypocrisy because they believe that it is impossible to take life long vows more than once, which is exactly what you do in a wedding, no, in fact they believe it is eternal vows.
I'm all for same sex marriages if they want them, but I'm not a christian so it is their practice, not mine.
[/qb]
It is humans being mastered by ideas, rather than the ideas being subservient to humanity. If people are unhappy living together and there is no way of repairing of improving their relationship, for the good of each other and themselves if they wish to they should be able to divorce.
Not be held in chains by the idea that what they are doing is somehow “sinful” and “bad” which enslaves people.
The divorce rate for Catholics is rising; this shows that they do not all wish to be held back by the idea that marriage is for life.
It’s not good for people who don’t get on or dislike each other to live together. If there is no desire on one or both partner’s part to salvage the relationship, in 100 out of 100 cases a divorce is best.

Quote:
Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel:
Uuuumm, no you can only get STD's by infected blood getting into someone elses blood stream, or through sexual activity.
You can't exactly get it from hugging people.
You're correct that you can't expect everyone to be monogamous, that's fairly obvious since not everyone is catholic or monogamous for other reasons, but yes, if both partners have followed Catholic rules, they can be sure of not catching STD's, condom or no.
[/qb]
Any exposure to any body fluids (for example Saliva) puts you at risk for catching an STD. This means there is a chance of catching an STD even if you are monogamous, as saliva contact with others can and often does occur, as well as other bodily fluid contacts.

Quote:
Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel:
Yes, well he can't prove God exists, you can't prove he doesn't, but Yorick's allowed to choose to believe that God does, and if that is what they believe, they will believe it, regardless of how much you tell them they can't prove it.
[/qb]
You cannot use God as a justification for anything since you cannot prove that he exists.
It would like be trying to justify killing all cats in America on the basis that if someone who hated cats was president, they’d want that done.

Quote:
Originally posted by Talthyr Malkaviel:
Well, if these people are Catholic, then they wouldn't do it in the first place, and if they aren't then that has nothing to do with the Catholic argument.[/QB]
If people wish to be celibate before marriage that is their choice,
But first of all they should not attempt to go around trying to impose on society that this is the best what for things.
Secondly such choices should be made of rational and logical evidence, not the idea that “it will make the world a better place” and “god wants us to” since those ideas cannot be proved in a non-subjective manner.
 
Old 05-12-2002, 09:46 AM   #70
Dramnek_Ulk
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
We don't stop them. THe church doesn't practice mind control. Chrisianity is actually a liberating faith. You can do what you like. The church generally puts forth things that it believes are beneficial to life and relationships and happiness. This knowledge is tried and tested over generations, and added to as the years pass. Collective knowledge. Every "Law" of Gods has a physical benefit and a spiritual benefit.

For example:
Do not murder. Obvious.
Do not envy. Again, obvious, envy is self destructive and hampers relationship with the envy and removes an individuals focus.
What the Church puts forth is morals and morality.
You cannot derive an “ought” from an “is”
Therefore IMHO there is no such thing as morality, just people and their desires. What we term morality is merely a sham masking people’s urges because they don’t have the courage or strength to own up to them. It is better to stop speaking morally and to start speaking honestly.
Obviously we cannot all go round indulging in our desires all the time as organised society would be collapse, so our desires are better served by co-operation and negotiation and compromise, but there is no need to Believe in illusions.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As far as celibacy goes, there are many times in a life when one may have to practice celibacy. A spouse may be ill or away. If one wants that relationship to continue on the spouses return/healing one is often advised to be celibate.

Celibacy is also not only the domain of the religious. Sportsmen practice it. Some practice it to 'keep their energy'. To each their own. Who are you to criticise anothers values?
Straw Man

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
People go to a church often for guidance. Because they may need relationship counselling, healing in some fashion. Good churches can be spiritual and emotional hospitals. Why criticise them for doing their job. Can you do better?
Secular authorities can do it better, since it comes without the ideological baggage of religion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I agree with Talthyr. You are obviously are not aware of the ludicrous contradiction of this statement. Without reproduction there is no evolution. If it evolved into anything, it is evolving into a fun thing. Necessity drives evolution, not pleasantries. Still, why the male nipple? The female clitorus? These are not necessary for reproduction. Seems to me a God wanted us to enjoy the process, rather than letting it be instinctive, and hormonally driven, as with the animals.
"Male nipples aren't exactly a genetic glitch: they are evidence of our developmental clock. In the early stages of life from conception until about 14 weeks, all human fetuses look the same, regardless of gender. At the tender age of 14 weeks post-fertilization , genetically-male fetuses begin to produce male hormones including testosterone. These hormones turn the androgynous fetus into a bouncing baby boy.
Here's where the developmental clock comes in. By 14 weeks, when the hormones turn on, the nipples have already formed. So, while our male fetus goes on to become a baby boy, he keeps his nipples, reminding all of us that people, male and female, started off the same way."

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Who are you to say what is better or worse? This is subjective. You are becoming what you criticise. This is hypocrisy Dramnek. For some, their religious faith holds them together. Others don't need that. Lucky them.

Were you aware I'm divorced? Were you aware I contribute to the ministry of a church? Were you aware homosexuals are more than welcome in my church?

It seems from your posts, you have little experience with the Christian Church. We all have our issues Dramnek. Some are more visable than others. An accepting Church accepts all, and lets God work stuff out with that person themselves.
Religion tries to impose its views on others or promote it’s views as being better for you. Religious leaders sound off all the time about issues, and have been involved in for example attempts to ban cloning of human embryos, Abortion etc thus restriction others choices.
Gay bashing is also very popular with many religions and Churches, which in the eyes of most people of course lends it legitimacy.
Most churches here certainly do not support same sex marriages and many do not even like female vicars, and if that’s not discrimination I don’t know what is, and I’ll wager the situation is the same in many other countries as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
No. It rests on what is the greater experience for me. The most wonderful sex I experienced, in extreme mind blowing regularity was with my wife. Monogamy, for me only made the experience better as the years went past. I didn't need a condom. Natural sex within Monogamy was a far better deal than faux sex, with a sensation numbing 'rubber glove' preventing true union, with a relative stranger.

If you're going to go sleeping around, then of course wear a condom. But that's not the only alternative. So, no, I'm not asking for it.
"No. It rests on what is the greater experience for me" or selfishness as others would term it. You also assume that everybody who needs or uses a condom will sleep around

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Speak for yourself. How can you presume to tell me what I can and cannot do? Again, a ludicrous statement with no factual or logical grounding. You cannot measure or experience what I do.

Now, You tell me that you can't claim be able to reasonablly interpret what it thinks. Fair enough, I won't argue that.
I believe I can. I believe he does exist, and communicates quite reguarly what is good for my life, and what isn't. No mistaking those messages.

This is my reality Dramnek. This is my truth. You cannot prove me wrong.
Then prove yourself right.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
You forgot to add a "TO ME". Sex is not innately special to you. Sex is inately special to me, and everyone I've been with, so what does that say about the two of us [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Again, throwing your subjectivity out there, who are you to say we're wrong. If people in a Church have collectively tried option A, and option B, some trying both, others one or the other, and the decision is reached that option B is a better path in pursuing happiness, who are you to criticise this? Millions of humans are in agreement on this subject. There's something to it. There's no smoke without a fire.
Hah, that’s the old 20,000 fanatics can’t be wrong idea. Just because people choose to do it or follow it, it doesn’t automatically mean there is anything in it.
Many people are racist and agree on racist ideas and policies (for example the British National party) but that doesn’t mean there is anything good in it does there?
You Also presume to cast judgement on my personal views about sexual matters.
If I believe that sex is special I can and Do, but other people do not have to do the same, and it is only in my opinion that sex is special. And how this belief of speciality is put into practise is also subjective and many people choose to do it differently.
 
 


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