Yahoo! Another Greek in Ironworks!

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by LennonCook:
a few things I picked up where Melusine is infact WRONG...

1. Hades was the Greek God of Death, lord of the Underworld yes. Hades was NOT the name of the underworld though. The correct names are the Halls of Hades or the House of Hades.

2. Greek and Roman gods were NOT the same with different names. They were actually fairly different, but are associated together because they had a similar role. Their personalities and the ways they were worshipped infact differed a bit.

3. There were 2 Gods of the Sun, yes, but NOT at the same time as you seem to imply. Ever heard the story of the how the Sun burned the africans black ??
Helios was in charge then, but after that Zeus cast him down from the Gods, and put Apollo god of Medicine and of Music in charge of the sun.

4. Cupid was NOT existant at the same time as Aphrodite. Aphrodite was Greek, but Cupid was ROMAN!!! This is one of the common misconceptions, the greek name for Cupid was Eros (which incedently is greek for love). Another of these misconeceptions would be Hercules being a Greek hero. He was the ROMAN GOD of strength. The greek hero associated with him was called Herakles.

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Wow, and I thought *I* was being pedantic...

1. Sheessssh...right. I didn't know the old Greeks spoke English. Halls of Hades it is then [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Actually Hades WAS the correct term but hey, what do I know, right?

2. That was not me who said that, so next time you go on a nitpicking spree, at least admonish the right people. What Lord Shield meant was that there are huge parallels between both pantheons, parallels so obvious that it *is* fair to say Mars is the equivalent of Ares, Venus of Aphrodite, etc.

3. While Artemis and Apollo were Gods of Sun and Moon, Selene and Helios were still the ones that rode the respective chariots through the skies. You seem to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that these are MYTHS, not histories, and that they were written down by a variety of Greeks and Romans, often contradicting eachother. That's the beauty of myths, that there are various versions of the same stories.

4. YOU are the one mentioning Cupid, I never even used that name. Yes, I am very well aware of the meaning of the word eros, thanks ever so much, but that doesn't mean Eros isn't the God of Love. It's the same thing as thanatos/Thanatos. Aphrodite and Eros did "exist" at the same time, ever heard the story of Psyche?
Also, I believe I have been correct in my usage of Greek vs. Roman terms so far, and I have never in my life called Herakles Hercules.

Looks like you picked the wrong person to lecture, kiddo. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[LennonCook]

I know I read the word Cupid in conjunction with the Word Aphrodite somewhere in this thread... either im turning dislexic (and im only 15- so not likely), or it has been edited out.

Ok, I picked the wrong person to lecture. At least a lecture from me is ALOT longer than that!! I have yet to post a true Lennon-Style lecture on the net.

Oh, the Halls of Hades. That is the name of his Domain, translated roughly into English.

Also- myths contradicting themselves ?? I agree fully. But ofcourse then we must point out the most common misconception with myths...

A Myth is not a collection of LIES, but a collection of TRUTHS. They may contradict each other, but they are RELIGEON. They were beleived to be true, and thus are true. All religeos beliefs are true, just so long as they are believed.
Do you agree Melusine ??

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by LennonCook:
I know I read the word Cupid in conjunction with the Word Aphrodite somewhere in this thread... either im turning dislexic (and im only 15- so not likely), or it has been edited out.

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Eh? Um... Lennon, dyslexia is all too common in children your age or younger. Are you confusing it with dementia by any chance? Anyway, you must have misread it, maybe you should check your sources before making an assertion. [img]smile.gif[/img]

quote:

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Ok, I picked the wrong person to lecture. At least a lecture from me is ALOT longer than that!! I have yet to post a true Lennon-Style lecture on the net.

Oh, the Halls of Hades. That is the name of his Domain, translated roughly into English.

Also- myths contradicting themselves ?? I agree fully. But ofcourse then we must point out the most common misconception with myths...

A Myth is not a collection of LIES, but a collection of TRUTHS. They may contradict each other, but they are RELIGEON. They were beleived to be true, and thus are true. All religeos beliefs are true, just so long as they are believed.
Do you agree Melusine ??

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No, I don't agree. Mythology is much more complex than that. Myths served so many purposes, they were more than simply a religion. They still had value even when people no longer truly believed in the Gods. Absolute lie or absolute truth doesn't even come into it.
Maybe you could read up a bit on the various schools with regard to the explanation and purpose of myths in Ancient Greece. Myths were not always seen as complete truths about the Gods people worshipped, they weren't to the Greeks the equivalent of the Bible to Christians. Socrates downright rejected the notion of the Gods as meddlers (and bad ones at that), like they are depicted in Homeros' Iliad. Some believed the Gods weren't even interested in Mankind. Others chose to interpret myths allegorically (either historical, physical or moral allegory). But anyway, read up on that a bit and you'll see what I am talking about.

[Epona]

Oh how in the HECK did I miss this thread?
Yet again, hidden under an unassuming title, is a discussion of complexity concerning one of my favourite subjects.
So once more, I appear after the debaters have long since vanished! Come back!!

Lennon, although addressed to the wrong person, your point about Roman/Greek gods is a very valid one which I agree with. The Romans used a lot from Greek culture when their own civilisation was new and growing - largely because the Greeks had colonised part of Italy. But Roman also includes many other influences, especially Etruscan, who predated the Romans in the region. So the Roman pantheon includes aspects of Greek gods - so there are some similarities - but they are also uniquely Roman.

They also had a whole bunch of other deities which had never been Greek, especially later in the Roman period. I am thinking about deities such as Mithras (from the middle east) Bacchus (based on the Greek version of Dionysos, who contrary to popular belief was not a Greek god but came from further north) Isis (from Egypt), oh the list is bigger but these are just off the top of my head. As well as these imported cults, and the basic Roman pantheon (Jupiter, Minerva, Juno et al) the Romans managed to incorporate many other religions into their belief system in areas that they conquered - for example in Britain we had Sulis Minerva (pre-Roman Sulis, who the Romans thought was something like their own Minerva) and in Gaul many deities such as Belenus (equated with Apollo), Taranis, Rosmerta etc. were absorbed into Roman belief, similarly by equating them to Roman deities. Bona Dea is an example of a very ancient non-Greek deity who was observed by the Romans (I use observe rather than worship, since I think there is a difference, worship does not accurately describe the relationship the Romans had with their deities).

In addition, the Romans were pretty good at inventing new gods for various situations - Roma is an obvious example - the godly personification of Rome itself. And of course during the Imperial period, the emperors themselves were deified - something which the ancient Greeks would have found abhorrent, but which was introduced by later Greeks during the Hellenistic period.

I would love some further discussion on this if anyone is interested, agreement, disagreement, full-blown fisticuffs....

[Melusine]

Epona, I was wondering what kept you so long! [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

What about Janus? I'd be interested to hear about his origins... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sir ReGiN]

Very interestin' post Epona! [img]smile.gif[/img]
And I just wondered..
Did roman and greek religion have any holy writings?
or rather, were they ever gathered into *one* book, or writing..
like the holy bible, or The Koran?

[Epona]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:
Epona, I was wondering what kept you so long! [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

What about Janus? I'd be interested to hear about his origins... [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Well if you will hide all the interesting debates....

Don't know much about Janus off the top of my head, I know that he has similarities in function to other deities in that he represents past present and future in one - and an example of the ever popular triple function or grouping of deities - you find this all over, I believe that genii are usually in threes (I mean Roman genii, not djinn!!) in fact I have a lovely postcard of a relief showing 3 genii which was found near Hadrians wall - they look as if they are wearing raincoats which is appropriate! And 3 aspects of many goddesses representing the phases of life (maiden, mother & crone). Ooh, and another one, Atropos, Clothos and Lachesis travelled in a pack of three! Excuse my spelling if I got any wrong.

Mmmm, that's the only really interesting thing about Janus that I can recall immediately, and some spurious ramblings from my poor tired brain which may be way off the mark! I will try to find out more, very interesting.

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Epona:


Well if you will hide all the interesting debates....

Don't know much about Janus off the top of my head, I know that he has similarities in function to other deities in that he represents past present and future in one - and an example of the ever popular triple function or grouping of deities - you find this all over, I believe that genii are usually in threes (I mean Roman genii, not djinn!!) in fact I have a lovely postcard of a relief showing 3 genii which was found near Hadrians wall - they look as if they are wearing raincoats which is appropriate! And 3 aspects of many goddesses representing the phases of life (maiden, mother & crone). Ooh, and another one, Atropos, Clothos and Lachesis travelled in a pack of three! Excuse my spelling if I got any wrong.

Mmmm, that's the only really interesting thing about Janus that I can recall immediately, and some spurious ramblings from my poor tired brain which may be way off the mark! I will try to find out more, very interesting.

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Yes, there we are with the threes again - we mentioned Hekate before didn't we? Oh, and there's the Norns, too! Weird how that keeps popping up EVERYWHERE... three is probably the most significant number ever

The thing about Janus though is that he has only two heads, right (the dual god)? One to look back and one to look forward (but how does he keep an eye on the present then? LOL) Strange, because you'd expect him to have three.

[Epona]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:
Very interestin' post Epona! [img]smile.gif[/img]
And I just wondered..
Did roman and greek religion have any holy writings?
or rather, were they ever gathered into *one* book, or writing..
like the holy bible, or The Koran?

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Well I hope someone else will be able to help out because my bible knowledge is very poor!
The short answer is no, there were no gathered writings. I think this is because the Bible serves a particular purpose in a particular style of worship - whereas the Greeks and Romans did not worship their gods. I know more about the Romans, who viewed the relationship with deities a bit like a contract - if you do this for me, I'll sacrifice some wine for you - and then both sides of the deal would be met - they did not kneel down and pray to their gods, nor did they try to convert anyone - it was not a religion in the same way that Christianity is a religion. It was very personal, and there were no morals binding people together based in the religion - morals were social rather than religious. Hence there was no need for collected stories and teachings to unite people under the same banner and with similar ways of worship.

There were of course plenty of stories about gods, many of them were humerous, and these would have been told orally by poets and storytellers. Some of these very early Greek stories were written down, and are attributed to the lyric poets Hesiod and Theognis of Megara - but they are poems, not a code by which to live your life or worship your gods. Theognis also wrote political lyric poetry. Another way of depicting stories involving gods was in art - sculpture in temples was a way of telling a story about both gods and history, with depictions of mythological and firmly historical events - but again, this is not a code for worship in the same way that the bible is.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Epona ]

oopsy! Looks like I caused some confusion with my parallels.

Thanks Epona, although familiar more with Greek than Roman I didn't know where the copying had started from

I believe the Romans also deified their Emperors too