What's best? THACO +2 or THACO +2 bonus?

kartetse · 11-12-2003, 02:18 AM

I've got a 'Flawless' two handed sword that's got THACO +2 and 1D10 rating. I've also now have Everain's one handed broad sword with THACO +2 bonus with a 2d4+2 rating and some small magical additions. Here's my problem:
If I sell Everain's I get more money to later buy some real good smacker flail for one of the gang. If sell 'Flawless' I'm short much more gold and I'm not sure 'Flawless' is much worse than Everain's. With Everain's I could opt for a shield but I'm already on 0 AC.

What would you do?

kartetse

---------------------
do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

[ 11-12-2003, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: kartetse ]

Dundee Slaytern · 11-12-2003, 03:55 AM

Sell the Flawless. Everain's average base damage is 7 compared to the Flawless' 5.5. 0 AC is... well... not really that great. An average Paladin with Splint Mail and 18 DEX can easily attain about -2 AC at level 1. Throw on the rings, amulets, etc... and you should be able to attain double-digits negatives in your AC rating by Dragon's Eye.

kartetse · 11-12-2003, 04:05 AM

Thanks for your opinion, Dundee!

Dumb question - How do you calculate a base damage and how does THACO influence it? (Except that, that's about how it sounds when you ==THACO== a blomp over the head!)

kartetse

---------------------
do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

[ 11-12-2003, 04:09 AM: Message edited by: kartetse ]

Dundee Slaytern · 11-12-2003, 04:20 AM

I almost forgot. Everain is +2 enchanted. Flawless is non-enchanted. Certain enemies in the game require weapons of certain levels of enchantment before they can be hurt, else you will just get the "Target is immuned to your weapon" message.

Your basic weapon has 3 main variables.

Enchantment
THACO
Damage

Enchantment is usually not written in the description, but implied by the weapon's name. This is important, because later on, you will encounter enemies that are immuned to all weapons except those of +4 enchantment and above.

In addition, Bows/Slings/Crossbows do not determine your weapon enchantment level, the AMMUNITION does.

THAC0 stands for "To Hit AC 0". It basically determines how well you can hit a target. The lower the THAC0, the better.

Formula: THAC0 - AC = Number to beat on a 1d20

A roll of 1 on the 1d20 is always a Critical Miss, while a roll of 20 is always a Critical Hit.

Calculating base damage is a simple enough affair.

For Flawless,

1d10 damage, therefore ( 1 + 10 ) / 2 = 5.5

For Everain,

2d4 + 2 damage, therefore ((( 1 + 4 ) / 2 ) * 2 ) + 2 = 7

kartetse · 11-12-2003, 05:08 AM

So the 'THAC0: +2 bonus', means that its enchanted, i.e. the "bonus" refers to the enchanted property? I know there are other magical characteristics but they seem almost negligible, am I missing something?

BTW - Dundee, thanks again for the input!

kartetse

---------------------
do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

Mundus · 11-12-2003, 06:57 AM

from what i understand, THACO +2 and THACO +2 bonus both mean the same thing. the enchanted bit refers to the fact that Erevain's sword is magical (u know this because of the +2 damage) - none magical weapons cannot get bonus damage to my knowledge. Basically, only weapons with magical properties are enchanted and usually to the same number as the damage bonus unless the description states different.
Hope i've clarified the situation 4 u!

kartetse · 11-12-2003, 07:45 AM

That's great! Where do you learn these things?

kartetse

---------------------
do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

NobleNick · 11-12-2003, 10:12 AM

kartetse,

On this forum, of course!

Seriously, a little surfing for D&D 2nd Edition rules (or "THAC0") should do it. BTW, athough most pronounce it "Thak'-oh," the last character in "THAC0" is a zero, not a letter "o."

As Dundee said in his excellent write-ups, Everain's sword is much more valuable (translation: effective) than the flawless. You will understand this viscerally when you meet up with a monster enchanted against normal weapons, and all in your party are getting the message "weapon ineffective," while said monster is pounding your party into pudding. Keep the Everain's until your entire front line is armed with +2 and you have to discard it to make room for a +3 (or better).

Let me try to rephrase Dundee's lesson: You can think of AC and THAC0 as an arms race, since whether or not you hit an enemy is determined by Your THAC0 ("Throw to Hit AC 0.") and the monster's AC. [Vice versa for the monster trying to hit YOU!] So, If your THAC0 = 10 and the monster's AC = 0, then you must roll a 10-0 = 10 or higher on a 20 sided dice (1d20) in order for your weapon to connect (hit). If the monster' AC is -2, then you must roll 10-(-2) = 12 or higher. If your brawny Fighter's THAC0 has been magically enhanced (lowered) to 5 and the poor goblin's AC is 7, then you need only roll a 5-7 = -2 or higher on a 1d20 to hit the scrawny naked cretin. Since the lowest possible roll you can get on a 1d20 is 1 (which is always higher than -2) you should theoretically ALWAYS hit this dude every time you swung the weapon at him. The reality is that you won't (see next paragraph).

There is one small caveat to the above rules of combat: A natural roll of 1 or 20 on the 1d20 means "throw the THAC0-AC formula out:" A natural 1 (critical miss) ALWAYS misses and a natural 20 (critical hit) ALWAYS hits, regardless of the THAC0/AC equation. In addition, a critical miss has some serious repercussions: IIRC you lose the ability to hit for a bit OR your AC takes a penalty for a round (can someone else help me out here?). For a critical hit, the physical weapon damage is doubled (magical damage is not doubled, IIRC).

So, let's revisit our poor scrawny naked goblin: You should, on average, hit with 95% of your swings (attacks), with 18 out of 19 attacks doing normal damage and the 19th doing double damage. Another 5% of your attacks will result in critical misses. (Of course, if it takes 20 hits to do this guy in, something is seriously wrong: like maybe he was an enchanted goblin in disguise!)

IF your weapon hits, another formula (as Dundee explained) determines how much damage the weapon does. Under normal circumstances, a weapon will always do SOME damage; but if the monster is immune to weapons of the enchantment level you hold (e.g., a wight that is immune to +1 weapons and above, and you are holding a +1 THAC0 sword) then the damage from the hit is ZERO, and you get the message "weapon ineffective." It is a real bummer to get in a critical hit with an "ineffective" weapon.

The AC and weapon bonuses can be confusing. Sometimes they say "+1" bonus or "-2" bonus," or just "+2" It is all a bonus which lowers AC or THAC0 (good news in both cases). Again, a +2 bonus (or -2 bonus) to THAC0 actually LOWERS the THAC0 by 2 (which is good). Same story for AC. Some weapons have a split in their THAC0. For example, the weapon description might show no bonus to the AC/THAC0 equation (deciding how often the weapon hits) but have a +2 enchantment for deciding which monsters will take damage from a hit by the weapon. Also some items trade off stats (+1 to STR but -1 to DEX). In these cases the sign is important, with "+" usually being good and "-" being bad. Read the equipment stats carefully. If needed, don the equipment while watching stats to figure out what really happens.

An AC of 0 might be excellent for where you are in the game, now; but in the later stages of IWD, and in HoW/TotLM you are going to want your tank to have an AC much better (lower) than -10. I am in TotLM and my front line has ACs of about -13, -14, -15, and -17 BEFORE any buffers or Bard songs to give them an AC bonus.

What's a party,
without a song?
Bard's ROCK!
Party on!!

[ 11-12-2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

kartetse · 11-13-2003, 04:46 AM

Cool, I've now started using Everain's sword and must say its nice to score 25-28 hit points against the enemy every now and again!

Thanks for your advice, guys!

kartetse

---------------------
do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

Stratos · 11-13-2003, 05:07 AM

A good thumb rule is that a bonus is always beneficial to you while a penalty isn't regardless of whether it says + or - next to the mumerical.

11-12-2003, 04:20 AM	#4
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 11,063	I almost forgot. Everain is +2 enchanted. Flawless is non-enchanted. Certain enemies in the game require weapons of certain levels of enchantment before they can be hurt, else you will just get the "Target is immuned to your weapon" message. Your basic weapon has 3 main variables. Enchantment THACO Damage Enchantment is usually not written in the description, but implied by the weapon's name. This is important, because later on, you will encounter enemies that are immuned to all weapons except those of +4 enchantment and above. In addition, Bows/Slings/Crossbows do not determine your weapon enchantment level, the AMMUNITION does. THAC0 stands for "To Hit AC 0". It basically determines how well you can hit a target. The lower the THAC0, the better. Formula: THAC0 - AC = Number to beat on a 1d20 A roll of 1 on the 1d20 is always a Critical Miss, while a roll of 20 is always a Critical Hit. Calculating base damage is a simple enough affair. For Flawless, 1d10 damage, therefore ( 1 + 10 ) / 2 = 5.5 For Everain, 2d4 + 2 damage, therefore ((( 1 + 4 ) / 2 ) * 2 ) + 2 = 7

11-12-2003, 06:57 AM	#6
Mundus Dungeon Master Join Date: February 11, 2003 Location: Jersey, Channel Islands - UK Age: 38 Posts: 69	from what i understand, THACO +2 and THACO +2 bonus both mean the same thing. the enchanted bit refers to the fact that Erevain's sword is magical (u know this because of the +2 damage) - none magical weapons cannot get bonus damage to my knowledge. Basically, only weapons with magical properties are enchanted and usually to the same number as the damage bonus unless the description states different. Hope i've clarified the situation 4 u! __________________ Morganis Szalazar III; Meet me if you dare!

11-13-2003, 05:07 AM	#10
Stratos Vampire Join Date: January 29, 2003 Location: Sweden Age: 43 Posts: 3,888	A good thumb rule is that a bonus is always beneficial to you while a penalty isn't regardless of whether it says + or - next to the mumerical. __________________ Nothing is impossible, it's just a matter of probability.

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11-12-2003, 02:18 AM	#1
kartetse The Magister Join Date: October 10, 2003 Location: New Zealand Age: 54 Posts: 114	I've got a 'Flawless' two handed sword that's got THACO +2 and 1D10 rating. I've also now have Everain's one handed broad sword with THACO +2 bonus with a 2d4+2 rating and some small magical additions. Here's my problem: If I sell Everain's I get more money to later buy some real good smacker flail for one of the gang. If sell 'Flawless' I'm short much more gold and I'm not sure 'Flawless' is much worse than Everain's. With Everain's I could opt for a shield but I'm already on 0 AC. What would you do? kartetse --------------------- do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo... [ 11-12-2003, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: kartetse ]

11-12-2003, 03:55 AM	#2
Dundee Slaytern Ironworks Moderator Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Pasir Ris, Singapore Age: 41 Posts: 11,063	Sell the Flawless. Everain's average base damage is 7 compared to the Flawless' 5.5. 0 AC is... well... not really that great. An average Paladin with Splint Mail and 18 DEX can easily attain about -2 AC at level 1. Throw on the rings, amulets, etc... and you should be able to attain double-digits negatives in your AC rating by Dragon's Eye.

11-12-2003, 04:05 AM	#3
kartetse The Magister Join Date: October 10, 2003 Location: New Zealand Age: 54 Posts: 114	Thanks for your opinion, Dundee! Dumb question - How do you calculate a base damage and how does THACO influence it? (Except that, that's about how it sounds when you ==THACO== a blomp over the head!) kartetse --------------------- do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo... [ 11-12-2003, 04:09 AM: Message edited by: kartetse ]

11-12-2003, 05:08 AM	#5
kartetse The Magister Join Date: October 10, 2003 Location: New Zealand Age: 54 Posts: 114	So the 'THAC0: +2 bonus', means that its enchanted, i.e. the "bonus" refers to the enchanted property? I know there are other magical characteristics but they seem almost negligible, am I missing something? BTW - Dundee, thanks again for the input! kartetse --------------------- do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

11-12-2003, 07:45 AM	#7
kartetse The Magister Join Date: October 10, 2003 Location: New Zealand Age: 54 Posts: 114	That's great! Where do you learn these things? kartetse --------------------- do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

11-12-2003, 10:12 AM	#8
NobleNick Quintesson Join Date: February 5, 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL, USA Age: 63 Posts: 1,045	kartetse, On this forum, of course! Seriously, a little surfing for D&D 2nd Edition rules (or "THAC0") should do it. BTW, athough most pronounce it "Thak'-oh," the last character in "THAC0" is a zero, not a letter "o." As Dundee said in his excellent write-ups, Everain's sword is much more valuable (translation: effective) than the flawless. You will understand this viscerally when you meet up with a monster enchanted against normal weapons, and all in your party are getting the message "weapon ineffective," while said monster is pounding your party into pudding. Keep the Everain's until your entire front line is armed with +2 and you have to discard it to make room for a +3 (or better). Let me try to rephrase Dundee's lesson: You can think of AC and THAC0 as an arms race, since whether or not you hit an enemy is determined by Your THAC0 ("Throw to Hit AC 0.") and the monster's AC. [Vice versa for the monster trying to hit YOU!] So, If your THAC0 = 10 and the monster's AC = 0, then you must roll a 10-0 = 10 or higher on a 20 sided dice (1d20) in order for your weapon to connect (hit). If the monster' AC is -2, then you must roll 10-(-2) = 12 or higher. If your brawny Fighter's THAC0 has been magically enhanced (lowered) to 5 and the poor goblin's AC is 7, then you need only roll a 5-7 = -2 or higher on a 1d20 to hit the scrawny naked cretin. Since the lowest possible roll you can get on a 1d20 is 1 (which is always higher than -2) you should theoretically ALWAYS hit this dude every time you swung the weapon at him. The reality is that you won't (see next paragraph). There is one small caveat to the above rules of combat: A natural roll of 1 or 20 on the 1d20 means "throw the THAC0-AC formula out:" A natural 1 (critical miss) ALWAYS misses and a natural 20 (critical hit) ALWAYS hits, regardless of the THAC0/AC equation. In addition, a critical miss has some serious repercussions: IIRC you lose the ability to hit for a bit OR your AC takes a penalty for a round (can someone else help me out here?). For a critical hit, the physical weapon damage is doubled (magical damage is not doubled, IIRC). So, let's revisit our poor scrawny naked goblin: You should, on average, hit with 95% of your swings (attacks), with 18 out of 19 attacks doing normal damage and the 19th doing double damage. Another 5% of your attacks will result in critical misses. (Of course, if it takes 20 hits to do this guy in, something is seriously wrong: like maybe he was an enchanted goblin in disguise!) IF your weapon hits, another formula (as Dundee explained) determines how much damage the weapon does. Under normal circumstances, a weapon will always do SOME damage; but if the monster is immune to weapons of the enchantment level you hold (e.g., a wight that is immune to +1 weapons and above, and you are holding a +1 THAC0 sword) then the damage from the hit is ZERO, and you get the message "weapon ineffective." It is a real bummer to get in a critical hit with an "ineffective" weapon. The AC and weapon bonuses can be confusing. Sometimes they say "+1" bonus or "-2" bonus," or just "+2" It is all a bonus which lowers AC or THAC0 (good news in both cases). Again, a +2 bonus (or -2 bonus) to THAC0 actually LOWERS the THAC0 by 2 (which is good). Same story for AC. Some weapons have a split in their THAC0. For example, the weapon description might show no bonus to the AC/THAC0 equation (deciding how often the weapon hits) but have a +2 enchantment for deciding which monsters will take damage from a hit by the weapon. Also some items trade off stats (+1 to STR but -1 to DEX). In these cases the sign is important, with "+" usually being good and "-" being bad. Read the equipment stats carefully. If needed, don the equipment while watching stats to figure out what really happens. An AC of 0 might be excellent for where you are in the game, now; but in the later stages of IWD, and in HoW/TotLM you are going to want your tank to have an AC much better (lower) than -10. I am in TotLM and my front line has ACs of about -13, -14, -15, and -17 BEFORE any buffers or Bard songs to give them an AC bonus. What's a party, without a song? Bard's ROCK! Party on!! [ 11-12-2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

11-13-2003, 04:46 AM	#9
kartetse The Magister Join Date: October 10, 2003 Location: New Zealand Age: 54 Posts: 114	Cool, I've now started using Everain's sword and must say its nice to score 25-28 hit points against the enemy every now and again! Thanks for your advice, guys! kartetse --------------------- do da do, kick da goo and stay outta da zoo...

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