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Old 01-23-2002, 11:51 AM   #31
MagiK
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Good grief, people if you wish to discuss these matters FORGET everything you saw in any hollywood produced movie and go study theology at a reputable seminary, I mean really 90% of the things I have seen people say here are taken right out of some movie script, or
shows a total lack of fundamental knowledge of the subject.

I see the anti-christians making broad sweeping generalizations, purposly muddling a specific point and then I see the christians quoting scripture with no understanding of the context and deeper issues surrounding the quotes. The Bible is THE #1 book to christians, however it should not be the ONLY book a good christian has read on the subject of theology, without a good base of knowledge you end up just making christianity look like a silly religion for mindless sheep. Too many times I see arguments for example about christianity taking bits and pieces of other religions and making it their own. When in reality the thing has nothing to do with christianity at all...say for example the "christmas tree" While christians put up trees the tree has NO meaning whatsoever in the dogma of the church, it was just a pretty way to attract converts (using persons/places/things they were familiar with in their old religion)


*sigh*


Never mind...Im going home.
 
Old 01-23-2002, 01:11 PM   #32
*\Conan/*
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Age: 62
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quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Good grief, people if you wish to discuss these matters FORGET everything you saw in any hollywood produced movie and go study theology at a reputable seminary, I mean really 90% of the things I have seen people say here are taken right out of some movie script, or
shows a total lack of fundamental knowledge of the subject.

I see the anti-christians making broad sweeping generalizations, purposly muddling a specific point and then I see the christians quoting scripture with no understanding of the context and deeper issues surrounding the quotes. The Bible is THE #1 book to christians, however it should not be the ONLY book a good christian has read on the subject of theology, without a good base of knowledge you end up just making christianity look like a silly religion for mindless sheep. Too many times I see arguments for example about christianity taking bits and pieces of other religions and making it their own. When in reality the thing has nothing to do with christianity at all...say for example the "christmas tree" While christians put up trees the tree has NO meaning whatsoever in the dogma of the church, it was just a pretty way to attract converts (using persons/places/things they were familiar with in their old religion)


*sigh*


Never mind...Im going home.

MajiK, These are peoples thoughts and feelings. Gabriel seems to have gotten some resolve from them, as well as, some others. If you have something to add about the subject please do.
Some threads like this are not meant to be analized under any microscope or taken lightly. I asure you that I take this subject very seriously and appreciated the responses that were given. Please be a little more careful Now, tell us what you are talking about. We can stand face to face, while you present your case [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 01-23-2002, 01:40 PM   #33
MagiK
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Well I would tell you what I was tlaking about but unfortunately I am not a skilled enough communicator to really do it justice, if you cannot read the first page of this thread and see why I was saddened by the way this continuation of the religion thread has gone, I can't help there. THAT WAS NOT a shot at your understanding or comprehension abilities but my lack of communcations ability.

I did not see the "honest desire for new information" but I admit I was more than a bit peeved at the whole thread after catching up on the original religion thread....

MY point is: PLEASE understand that you won't get a fully qualified answer to deep issues from a few lines on a chat forum, these issues are much much deeper than can be gone into in a mere few lines, and one of the things that gets people heated is the fact that not all the information gets posted because then the post would be several hundred pages long...the issue of theology does not lend itself to great discussion in this medium. Consider that people have been debating these issues since the dawn of time and we still have no concensus...so I encourage everyone christian and non...to remember that 1 book alone does not a belief system make, the best that can be hoped for from one book is to put together a foundation...


No chastisement intended no hate nor anger in this post, just a sincere wish for people to not settle for the quick forum generated answer.
 
Old 01-23-2002, 03:01 PM   #34
Talthyr Malkaviel
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Join Date: August 31, 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Durwyn:
Well as a Russian-Christian-Orthodox, and Orthodox I would say is the deepest form of Christianity, I can try and answer your tomentious question. In any case, a question like why Satan is evil is fairly simple to answer. Satan is evil because he is considered the ruler of Hell, a place for sinners to pay for their sins, and those may be of any kind. A sin is anything that you would consider wrong. Perhaps an exact definiton of such is really not known, but a sin is simply a wrong thing, and there are many parts of 'SIN'. A light sin, a serious sin, and a major sin. A light would perhaps be like stealing a candy from kitchen when your parents said you cant have any. A serious sin would be stealing something more like a purse, or some small money, clothes, toys, small amounts of things as such. A major sin would be rape, kills, and believe it or not sex. At least in Russian-Orthodox its not allowed to practice safe sex. Of course around 99.9% of Russians do not follow that rule, but it is sin after all. Now to answer the question, Satan is responsible for all of those sins, he is the one that would perhaps make you do those sins under his own influence. Thus he is considered evil, because stealing money, or killing someone is evil. Things of evil nature would automatically be forwarded to Satan. For he is the keeper of sin and the evil one...

I dont know really how to exactly asnwer why Satan is evil, he just is, and most everyone knows that...I mean Satan = Evil, bottom line heh .



Well, if Satan is evil, then I have a point to make from an atheists view.

Nowadays people consider anything wrong evil, and Satan's work, but hundreds of years ago, God was seen from a hugely different view.
Back then, God was seen as one who would be on their side when they waged wars, and commited deeds that now would've most likely been seen as acts of evil.
For example, a Christian country back then has a bloody war with another Christian country, notuice how they would both believe God was with them, marching on to glorious victory, as they killed people in atrocious ways.
Which side would God be on then, and each side will see the other as evil.
I daresay in the future, Christians will look back and label those who support Capital punishment as evil.
How can there be one true evil and one true good if what is evil is constantly changing with time, in my opinion, God is just a representative of what is considered right and wrong, not necessarily good and evil, because it all depends on the peoples perspective.
I don't want to seem as if I'm flaming anyone, so if it comes across that way, please forgive me.

P.S- Durwyn, could you teach me a few words of Russian? I've always wanted to learn it.
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Old 01-23-2002, 03:08 PM   #35
Talthyr Malkaviel
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quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Good grief, people if you wish to discuss these matters FORGET everything you saw in any hollywood produced movie and go study theology at a reputable seminary, I mean really 90% of the things I have seen people say here are taken right out of some movie script, or
shows a total lack of fundamental knowledge of the subject.

I see the anti-christians making broad sweeping generalizations, purposly muddling a specific point and then I see the christians quoting scripture with no understanding of the context and deeper issues surrounding the quotes. The Bible is THE #1 book to christians, however it should not be the ONLY book a good christian has read on the subject of theology, without a good base of knowledge you end up just making christianity look like a silly religion for mindless sheep. Too many times I see arguments for example about christianity taking bits and pieces of other religions and making it their own. When in reality the thing has nothing to do with christianity at all...say for example the "christmas tree" While christians put up trees the tree has NO meaning whatsoever in the dogma of the church, it was just a pretty way to attract converts (using persons/places/things they were familiar with in their old religion)


*sigh*


Never mind...Im going home.



Well, hopefully I can say that I have knowledge of both sides of the argument, because althought I'm atheist my Primary School was a church school, and I got bored in a lesson in Yr4 and read the bible, there wasn't much in the school else to read, apart from ridiculously easy, boring 2 minute read books, and I wanted to see the basis of their thoughts.
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Old 01-23-2002, 03:48 PM   #36
Black Dragon
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Don't judge me wrong on this but I really don't go to church any more becuase the people go there and start crying. (nothing to cry about, IT'S CHURCH) I do beleive in god an all but I don't see why your wrong about the devil thing, you may be right. Guess we'll never know.
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Old 01-23-2002, 05:03 PM   #37
Yorick
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quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
I see the christians quoting scripture with no understanding of the context and deeper issues surrounding the quotes.


Eh? Care to elaborate on this?
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Old 01-23-2002, 05:10 PM   #38
Scholarcs
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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Eh? Care to elaborate on this?


Well, sometimes someone reads something out of the bible, but they do no understand what it means. They do not understand that they are supposed to do what it says. They do not believe in what they are saying with all their heart. You have to believe it if it is to be your religion, philosophy, way of life, whatever you want to call it.
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Old 01-23-2002, 06:58 PM   #39
Garnet FalconDance
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MagiK,

I may simply be smarting under a certain chastisement received at your hand or totally misinterpreted your teasing but your post here brought a comment back to the fore....

I hope you're not interpreting those of us who are not Christian as *anti*Christian (remember now what you said?) because I for one am not. I am *non*Christian, which is something entirely different. I do believe in most of the basic tenets of the religion (I can hear Yorick winding up to have a go at me already) such as the way to treat others, the 'dos and dont's', excluding what would be the 'biggie' of holding 'God' above all other gods. I don't hold any one over the other as I think Deity in itself (himself/herself)is too vast to quantify...and God himself ackowledged there were other gods and that he was a 'jealous god'. (Warning: I will *not* debate this point.)

As for Satan, I think he got a raw deal. He does not exist in my 'pantheon' of deities since I do not adhere to a Judeo-Christian Path, but that doesn't mean I know nothing of the religion and the stories. Actualy I was part of a lively discussion on this same topic on a (mostly) Orthodox Christian list a few months ago. I say mostly since there is a nice Chasidic Jewish man and at least two pagans besides me (the resident token witch) to add flavor to the group. It is quite a civil bunch and the talk was enlightening.....

I will say that, based on what I learned there from ancient Jewish texts as well as further Bible study of my own because of it, that much of the modern bruhaha over the 'evil' of Satan is firmly anchored in the dark/middle ages and the RC church.

So MagiK, some of us can quote scriptures and some of can interpret them.......and some can do both. But this is one of those touchy subjects more likely to bring out those who remain polarized. ::shrugs:: Such is the nature of religion and politics.
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Old 01-23-2002, 07:05 PM   #40
Yorick
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quote:
Originally posted by Scholarcs:


Well, sometimes someone reads something out of the bible, but they do no understand what it means. They do not understand that they are supposed to do what it says. They do not believe in what they are saying with all their heart. You have to believe it if it is to be your religion, philosophy, way of life, whatever you want to call it.




I know that, but MagiK included me (for one) in his/her sweeping generalisation. I was wondering if he'd/she'd care to explain what in my post led him/her to do so.
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