Weapon proficiencies?

Well, the MC to me seems like a jack of all trades with giving and getting. The thief is restricted by not being able to backstab with some of the weapons that a fighter could use (you can't BS with a hammer or a 2hander), and you can't wear heavy armour and move around and sneak and hide, or do your other abilities. Sort of like how the mages can't wear armour of they loose there ability to cast. I do agree that 2 is too low, but I think they should have made it say 3 or maybe 4, definately not 5. The big advantage is the increased THACO ability you get being a fighter/slash-whatever. True the duel classes get some benifits but are limited to being human, and not gaining in there first class again (but is kinda moot if you wait till 9 to duel a fighter/thief, you get most of the bonuses and alot of the hitpoints). Plus as you level up as a DC F/T you end up having to either not level (which is hard) up till your 10 so you don't place your points in weapons you don't want, or leveling up as you go and placing them in weapons you don't want (or using Shadow Keeper).

I haven't read much on what there gonna do with 3rd Edition AD&D rules, curious as to how my Rogue will convert over.

Just thought of something else, but what about lack of equipment that keeps you from hiting or damageing a monster in the game? That Archer who got his grandmastery in long bow and can't hit a +4 to hit monster is gonna be a bit peeved since he/she can't find a +4 damage/to hit bow in the game or +4 arrows for that matter. Correct me if I'm wrong Archers, but that is what I have heard, havent tried it yet. At least with a specilization in long swords, short, dagger, 2hander, hammer, and sling you can hit and damage them. You can allways switch to a non-specialized weapon and try and hit them but that sucks too. I guess its a give and take and how much reading/research you do.

[Father Bronze]

Just a couple of thoughts.

Someone earlier mentioned age. Without being rude, that's not a reason. Humans live for 100 years, Elves for 400? And a human dual-classed Fighter/Thief is better at using a longsword? It doesn't make sense.

One other bit of irony for you Charlie is that the description of character races claims that Elves are highly proficient in the use of longswords and bows, yet they can't get beyond ** when acting as a multi-class fighter. This was beyond rational.

[Charlie]

Good point Father Bronze.

To be honest no amount of trying is ever going to convince me that the weapon proficiency allocation is correct for M/C Fighter characters.

[Moridin]

I would like to reply to Jimbo's post about magical weapons and why someone specilized in, say a long-bow, cannot hit a creature immune to +3 and below.....it too bothers me that this is the case, but I look at it like this.......say you have a plate of glass and you are trying to break it by throwing sponges at it. You are the best sponge thrower in the world, but no matter how many sponges you throw you cannot break the glass. But you pick up a stone and **SHATTER** the glass breaks. It is not the ability to 'hit' the monster, it is the protection that the monster has. You are hitting it "what I hit..to no effect", but not damaging it.

As for the weapon proficiency of multi-class characters, I have to agree with Charlie.....I don't buy the fact that b/c you are multi-class you cannot specialize in a weapon. If you are a fighter/mage you are not restricted by the number of spells you can memorize or the level of spell you can reach....if you are a thief you are not restricted to the number of thieving points you can assign....a cleric the same as mage.....a bard.....If a fighter/thief(mage/cleric) gains enough XP to gain that extra proficiency then why can't he/she use it to specialize? That is the advantage of a fighter over other classes, the ability to specialize in weapons...if you take this away you are taking away what it means to be a fighter....you are stripping the fighter of their identity.

Again, I'm not saying that I agree with why they came up with those rules, but you have to remember they started back with the 1st edition. It was declared that because the demi-humans lived longer, they just decided to become more in tune with nature and life in general than they were with their jobs. They figured that over time, they would get good with it. Imagine if you will a demi-human that is multi-class today at 123 (elf). Well, when they get up over 250, wouldn't that make their proficiencies at 20 or maybe even 30 instead of 5? Doesn't it make sense to think if they did the best they could that they would actually surpass the human? Well, the designers of the game wanted humans to play in the game. Why be a human if they don't have any advantages. Hence the reason that demi-humans could not be as proficient as the humans. Originally, that was why they had level limits as well. I can't remember exactly what they were, but I believe the elf could only become like a 9th level or maybe an 11th level mage, whereas the human could go ad infinitum. This whole dual class business was started because people griped that humans were worthless if they couldn't do more than one class. Since they give up the old class (can't progress further), it was deemed that they could excel to whatever level they wanted to go in the 2nd. That's why they are not limited by proficiencies. It is assumed that they devote their whole existence to this class. They also have that time limit thing too. If they want to be a grandmaster, they don't have as much time to learn. That gives them reason to do it as fast as possible. As for the demi-humans, they think, "Eh, it's another 250 good years of fighting I have, I'll get to it." The whole system sucks, but that's what they came up with, and unfortunately, that's what we are stuck with.

So we have concluded in our interesting little debate that basicly some of the AD&D rules need looking at VERY! closely

[Charlie]

Exactly Moridin. You also lose out on number of attacks, speed of use and damage inflicted....the main essences of being a fighter in the first place that are in line with being (highly) proficient in the weapon of that fighters choice.

Well, most of these rules have changed in 3rd edition. They do not have level restrictions and also they do not have proficiency restrictions. You just have to give up some stats and stuff for what you want. You have to give up double or triple points if you want another classes abilities. They've basically made it where you can totally customize your character now. Also, everyone has the ability to multi-class. You don't even have to start off that way either. It's like on the fly dual-classing. You don't give up your first profession, but you may have penalties against your 2nd class.

Actually Moridin, I wasn't implying that someone with weapon specilazation should be able to hit the magic monsters, I meant that there should be the means available so that we can hit those magical monsters. Example of the archer is that you can't hit the +4 to hit mobs because of lack of +4 arrows or +4 damage bows. A fighter who uses bastard swords won't be able to use a bastard sword because currently none of the bastard swords are great enough to damage those creatures, same with katana users. In other words I don't think my sponge of +3 should break the glass, but if I could find in the game a sponge that was +4 it should be able to. Problem is that some weapons are better some aint. And making someone stand around and do nuthing or function at hinderance isn't fun either. What would be nice if if they made sure and went threw and added items of +4hit/damage to all the weapons out there so at least you can function. That or say a debuffing spells that when cast upon the antagonist reduce there protection, you could make greater and lesser debuffs, and ones that are short and long acting. They have that in for lowering magic protection so you can get spells to land.

Just an idea. I actually wasn't thinking that if you have specialization points it should help your to hit/damage ability of magic monsters, was more beeching about not being able to find weapons of quality so I can lay the smack down on those mobs that are high magic weapon hit only.