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Old 09-01-2006, 10:10 AM   #1
Marathon
Elminster
 

Join Date: December 10, 2003
Location: OP, KS
Age: 50
Posts: 489
I know that generally magic in W8 is more supportive in nature, status effects are better than damage, and melee is generally considered king for damage. However, I'm playing through with a Bishop in my party for the first time in years, and really want to see if I can make him more of a killing machine. couple of questions:

What are considered the best damage spells (not instant kill spells, but actual damage) that come in handy through the end game? I'm not very familiar with the Alchemy spell books, but have found that generally fire spells don't work well with the Rapax where water does (Blizzard is nice). What else?

Secondarily, what instant kill spells do you favor?

Lastly, what are the best spells to use to build a Bishop toward a higher alchemy skill? He's around level 10/11 (I think 10, but ready to level), Powercast is around 15, Wizardry is up to level 4 spells, alchemy is at 39, Psionics at 31.
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Old 09-02-2006, 07:46 AM   #2
Silpion
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Join Date: June 16, 2002
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I use damage spells only in the beginning. MagicMissiles and WhippingRocks are useful. Later on BoilingBlood is quite good but I prefer instant kills.

One of the best instant kill spells seems to be Quicksand. In my experience it has a far better chance to kill enemies than more costly spells like Death Wish. Another good one is DeathCloud because it lasts several turns.

A good spell to train alchemy is KnockKnock and a good lock to train is the vault in Arnika. If you have enough patience you can level up your alchemy to whatever value you want.
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Old 09-02-2006, 09:33 AM   #3
Wereboar
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: June 6, 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 795
Quote:
Originally posted by Marathon:
However, I'm playing through with a Bishop in my party for the first time in years, and really want to see if I can make him more of a killing machine.
You wont't. If you have one pure spellcaster in a party, he'll always be the supporter (at least after say level 10).
Quote:
What are considered the best damage spells (not instant kill spells, but actual damage) that come in handy through the end game?
Fire spells (lightning, fire bomb, boiling blood, nuclear blast) are best in general. But there are several exception: Rapax area, underwater areas, 1/4 of ascension peak (the chaos route).
Frost spells (Blizzard, Tsunami) work best in Rapax areas, and in the chaos route on ascension peak
Mental spells (psionic blast, mind flail, concussion) are great against anything that casts elemental shield.
Earth spells (earth quake, falling stars) are some all-purpose spells, and are the best availavle in the underwater areas.
Divinity has lifesteal and might to magic. I've done fights at ascension peak with these spells alone, for example against death wings or scorchers, and didn't run out of spell points.
Air is the worst realm for pure damage, although toxic cloud has nice status effects.

Quote:
Secondarily, what instant kill spells do you favor?
None.
If i have several pure spellcasters, instant kill spells are useless. They remove some of the enemies, but you don't need less spell power to kill the remaining ones. Only instant kill spell i use is eye for an eye.

Quote:
Lastly, what are the best spells to use to build a Bishop toward a higher alchemy skill?
You need an alchemy spell that isn't also in Wizardry. I think you have to stick to acid splash and the like until you reach alchemy 45, then you can learn fire bomb and acid bomb.

Again: Don't try to make your lone bishop to a killing maching. Better use him for support in this party, and start a spallcaster party later.

Just yesterday, i just finished a spell heavy game. Mage, Psionic, Priest, Alchemist, Bishop, and Bard. Bard is nice in such a group since he can work as a tank and do melee damage if necessary (there is a handful of monsters that are very resistant to magic). But he can use instruments as his primary weapons, and thus fits nicely in a magic heavy group. BTW the bishop was by far the most useless character in the party, since he has trouble getting his spell skills beyond 75.
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Old 09-02-2006, 09:34 AM   #4
Wereboar
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: June 6, 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 795
Quote:
A good spell to train alchemy is KnockKnock and a good lock to train is the vault in Arnika. If you have enough patience you can level up your alchemy to whatever value you want.
But not for the character in question, since his wizardry skill is above his alchemy skill.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:25 AM   #5
xfactor
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Join Date: June 15, 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 77
For pure damage I find Ego Whip to be very good. Most non-intelligent creatures have a failry low Mental resistance and the only drawback is that it's a cone spell.

I don't often use spells purely for damage because it's too inefficient. Tsunami is great against the Rapax and I also like Earthquake. Psionic Blast is good against large groups too. I find that most late-game enemies have resistances that are too high to justify casting damage spells at them.

For instant death Quicksand is probably the best spell. It seems to be more effective than any other death spell except Death Cloud, but that tends to take too long to get the job done.

I honestly think a much better approach is to go for the status ailment spells. Toxic Cloud is easily the best, but Pandemonium is good too. The reason I prefer Toxic Cloud is because it doesn't frighten people and cause them to run away.

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Old 09-08-2006, 12:16 PM   #6
DraconFighter
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Join Date: October 27, 2003
Location: Maryland
Age: 70
Posts: 62
Wereboar wrote:
"Just yesterday, i just finished a spell heavy game. Mage, Psionic, Priest, Alchemist, Bishop, and Bard."

What luck! I've been mucking around with this exact same party, but have been having trouble getting the Priest and Bishop to my liking. I've started two parties, but didn't take them out of the Monastery (I often take a party for a test drive through the Monastery to see if they tickle my fancy). I've had the Priest and Bishop in the front lines with a Mace/Shield (along with the Bard using Bloodlust/Shield). I didn't put the Alchemist in front because, once you give an Alchemist a shield, there really aren't any great weapons for him to use.

Wereboar, how did you handle your Priest and Bishop in terms of race, attributes, weapons and formation?

I'm used to quick Priests who sling stones from the back row built with Powercast and Eagle Eye. For the Bishop, I picked Mind Stab at creation thinking only to get spells from books so that I could get a good selection of high level spells. Never had a Bishop with all 101 spells before.
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Old 09-11-2006, 12:05 PM   #7
Wereboar
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: June 6, 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 795
DragonFighter:
It sounds like you tried to play your spellcasters like you would play hybrids. They are casters, nothing else. In my game, they never used melee or a missile weapon (but they wielded melee weapons for their activation).

I had the bard in front as a tank (with a shield and bloodlust - if i want to concentrate on magic, additional AC is better than dual wield). Priest and alchemist were at the fanks, bishop in back, each one with a shield, just to avoid anything to get near my fragile mage and psionic.

The bishop was the biggest disappointment in the party. For the other casters, just push their spell realm + 2-3 elemental skills at level up. The bishop has 4 scools to increase, and doesn't have a skill bonus in them, and was 1-2 levels behind the others due to higher XP requirements. He learned his first level 7 spells about 2 levels before the end of the game, while the others were already casting them at spell level 5-6.

The priest should *not* learn heal wounds at the start of the game. Instead, he should use 'make wounds' as his primary attack.

With all casters, i maxxed intelligence (powercast) and wisdom (iron will, spell points) first, followed by vitality. Fight skills are useless for them. Maybe i should have choosen vit over wis, since once i was level 11, spell points were no problem anymore.

As i said, i played them as pure casters. Bard using instruments most of the time (only melee against magic resistant monsters, or when my casters run out of spell points. Make a fight or two, go to a save place, rest the spell point (which goes fast with a bard). Once i was level 11, i had a portal at the trynton fountain, one in Lower Martens Bluff, one elsewhere, and one as a temporary one. So i could blast away anything with spells in a fight, set a portal, return to Trynton, drink to regain spell points, and teleport back to where i was.

The bard alone in the front line - no problem, since you can cast guardian angel and stone skin on him if there are fights against heavy melee groups. But enemies like Juggernauts are easy with a group of casters - just run to a corner, and use ball and cone spells, and they are gone in about 3-4 round (bard using sirens wail to distract them).

Oh yes, and i played the game in expert ironman mode, as always.
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Old 09-11-2006, 04:49 PM   #8
Roboghost
Manshoon
 

Join Date: May 15, 2002
Location: California
Posts: 216
Bishops...

I'm running two bishops doing the split duty thing: Alch/Psi and Mage/Pri. This allows for fairly powerful magic help as long as you concentrate each in their respective areas only.

I'm also running - along with a gadgeteer - three true hybrids (meaning I'm splitting their growth between fight {what they do best} and spell.) This takes time, so I don't recommend this team if going fast, but they are murdering the opponents now:

Samurai - Mage
Missile Shield
Enchanted Blade
Fireball
Iceball

Monk - Psionic
Armor Melt
Haste
Insanity
Eye for an Eye
Shrill Sound
Psionic Fire
Psionic Blast

Ranger - Alchemist
Noxious Fumes
Whipping Rocks
Acid Bomb
Fire Bomb

Two above use buffs - this allows more room for my bishops to devastate with spells after they fire off important buffs (Soul / Element) first. I noticed that the hybrids better stick to fighting on the BIG fights though. They need to get in there and kill against Death Lords and such - I gathered up the Death Lords and Sorceress Queen [I'll tell you the "trick" if anyone is interested] instead of taking them on magic to magic: I tried to fight spell vs. spell, but they kicked my butt at level 14 that way!

All in all they're a great team and my gadgeteer seals the deal nicely.

Oh...I do recommend using two Elf's for bishops. Mine are using wrist rockets and spike stones (50 each.) This combined 15% knockout is wreaking havoc on the enemy now that they hardly ever miss when they fling stones at the nasties! For fun; I'm training them with the whip so they can hit extended and use a shield, but I'm only around 16 skill points each in CC/Flail/Shield so far {level 16.} They are going to use the better whips when they come along. I like the sound they make, so they just fight with them at the end of battles when the enemies are getting down to their last hit points and my spell points have run dry. This is also good to throw powders and such.

Training: I actually don't "train" much. I do a LOT of fights and focus on the weak skills constantly to get everybody up to speed for an overall power team. Takes longer, but I am earning money and experience points this way. A good example is the damn vines. If my monk is lagging in air realm, then I keep hitting the vines with Shrill Sound until they're all dead. I keep everyone using weak weapons and ammo for a long while until my levels get up there.

Finally, I'm a "normal" mode player. You're skills my go up a bit more, but I'd also rather get my experience points up there faster too. You can always have your team sit by the side of the road and gather a swarm of baddies while you go eat and watch a movie. Come back and enjoy a HUGE fight.
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Old 09-12-2006, 03:27 PM   #9
DraconFighter
Dungeon Master
 

Join Date: October 27, 2003
Location: Maryland
Age: 70
Posts: 62
Wereboar wrote:
"It sounds like you tried to play your spellcasters like you would play hybrids."

Come to think of it, you're right (just never thought of it that way before). I like to develop Powercast and either Powerstrike or Eagle Eye for each specialist caster. Eagle Eye especially works out well for the Soul Shield and Elemental Shield casters since the extra Initiative from maxing out Senses really lets them get the shields done before any enemy does anything and the Eagle Eye works wonders when they are facing critters with high resistance. I usually have my book and realm magic skills maxed out by the late game anyway, so it doesn't seem that I'm missing out by developing one combat skill for the casters. I really like my Dracon Alchemist with Powercast and Powerstrike using the Staff of Doom.

I guess you could also say that I play my hybrids like they were casters, developing Powercast for them most of the time.

Thanks for insights. I ended up replacing the Bishop with a Ranger and have enjoyed this party (Ran-Bar-Pri-Alc-Psi-Mag) so far. I'll just have to content myself with a slow Priest until the Bard gets the Rousing Drums.

Edit: I play expert mode, but not iron man. I love to reload and try battles using different tactics. I also always reload after a death. Getting your party through the game with no deaths adds a bit of difficulty, though no where near ironman.

[ 09-12-2006, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: DraconFighter ]
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Old 09-16-2006, 10:40 AM   #10
DinkumThinkum
Dungeon Master
 

Join Date: March 30, 2005
Location: Luna Penal Colony
Age: 77
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally posted by Marathon:
Lastly, what are the best spells to use to build a Bishop toward a higher alchemy skill?
You can also build up alchemy skill by mixing potions: this works for any character who has the alchemy skill.

Also a good way to make money, if you're careful which potions you make (some potions are worth less than the ingedients you mix to make them).
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