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Old 01-14-2001, 10:16 AM   #41
Yorick
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Hi Tivak,
What about human adaptability? How does that trait get recognised? Skills? Surely an elf that outlives a human more than four times over can aquire the same if not more skills in that time. The best thing about humans was that only they could be some of the more exotic classes. In 3rd ed. if what you're saying is true, a specialist in one class is penalised as the benefit lies in dualing.

I'd like to see varieties of humans, similar to some Ad&d sourcebooks. With racial bonus's and various special skills.

I understand that the changes were driven by CRPGs needs to simplify and avoid endless exeptions. Doesn't necessarily make for better gaming though. Look at what happened when the 2nd ed. players handbook came out. No Assassin or Monk!

At least Bards were made playable.
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Old 01-14-2001, 11:26 AM   #42
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Human Adaptability is present in two aspects, their greater number of skills, and their ability to have any prefered class.

For example, an Elf's prefered class is Wizard. This means that if their first class is a Wizard, they do not have penalties in their second class should it ever go beyond 2 levels of the Wizard class. However, if the first class they choose is not a prefered class of the race, they will get a penalty to their xp should that gap be crossed.

For example, a level 2/5 Wizard/Fighter does not get an xp. penalty, whereas a 2/5 Figher/Wizard would get a penalty. What this does, in effect, is force non-humans to keep all their multiple classes within 2 levels of each other if they do not wish to have experience penalties.

Humans, no matter what his first class, could be 2/11 and still get no xp penalty. This makes them a lot more flexible. You could get a Rogue to level 4, and then be a Wizard up to 16 (4/16) and you would not have any xp penalty. Do this with an Elf, and it would take a lot longer to achieve.

What I cannot remember, is how it works for the 3rd/4th/etc classes; although in effect, I doubt anyone in 3rd edition would try and acquire 3 or more classes. I believe it's 10% xp penalty per additional class; which is not insignificant. 10% penalty for second class, 20% penalty for 3rd, 30% for fourth.

What everyone needs to keep in mind, however, is that as a DM, you get to tweak the rules however you choose. You must simply make players aware of the changes. In my game, Trolls are overruning the main continent, therefore, I decided that all Rangers _must_ choose Troll as their first racial enemy (in 3rd ed, Rangers gain a new racial enemy every 4 levels). I also decided that Monks could only be Humans, Elves and Half-Elves.
 
Old 01-14-2001, 03:31 PM   #43
JohnTheRanger
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I hate dualclassing!
Rangers and paladins is the characters that does survive.........
 
Old 01-14-2001, 07:34 PM   #44
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i would say the blade or the jester are some of the best chars.right now im playing a blade and he has been very good. Defensive spin and Offensive spen work really well.
Rangers are good also
 
Old 01-14-2001, 09:33 PM   #45
Yorick
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Sure, but now that makes the situation opposite to 2nd Ad&d where humans can't multiclass and so are normally the best specialists, whereas in 3rd ed. the advantage is that they can be more than one class better than the others. It's sounds a little disappointing from a roleplay aspect to me and reverses what we have now.

Not everyone likes dualclassing you know. Sometimes dualclassing just makes a character harder to roleplay. Oh, unless your one of those that play the same type of character no matter what he/she is.....

Still, change, sometimes even for the better can be hard to take. It's like they're changing the rules of the world. WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?!?

Oh and smaug I love playing Bards, it's just in 1st ed. You had to be a fighter up to lvl 5-8 or eight then dual to a theif up to lvl 5-9 and then become a bard. Suck!
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Old 01-14-2001, 09:36 PM   #46
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Paladins... if you want to see what I think of paladins, read that 'story of Wah' thread.
I'm still at a loss as to how a dwarf, whose sole purpose in life is to mine or otherwise horde gold, could ever grasp the concept behind being a ranger or a paladin. That's what made humans special, that they thought outside the square. The other races were completely set in their ways and didn't even want to know about all these new-fangled classes and gods; they just wanted to live their first hundred years as slowly as possible, learning about their own culture and background, then slooowly progress into a profession, then slooowly spend the rest of the millenium studying and training. No need to hurry along when you've got over a thousand years to get wherever you're going, right? Here's an idea; perhaps instead of racial level limitations, the other races just level up at a far, far slower rate than their human cousins. I'm talking twice as slow. That would make more sense.
 
Old 01-14-2001, 10:06 PM   #47
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Double might be a bit extreme but something like that, which follows a logical extension of the 'laws' already in place is a good idea.
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Old 01-14-2001, 10:22 PM   #48
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Hmm. The concept of a dwarven ranger would be quite amusing wouldn't it. Maybe a dwarf CAN be a ranger but gets penalties because it's not a 'traditional' dwarven class. I don't know that much about 3rd ed rules yet but as someone said earlier on it's skill driven. That's why you don't have a true 'class' as such, you could be a L5 fighter, and an L2 mage and and L3 cleric (I'm guessing here). The downside of all this versatility is obviously that you can end up being a jack of all trades, mediocre at all, good at none. And I'm sure they must've given humans some advantage to compensate for all the racial disadvantages they get.
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Old 01-14-2001, 10:29 PM   #49
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Yeah, twice as slow is a bit too much, but it'd have to be a decent amount, something that would convince people to use humans. The only thing I've heard about 3rd ed is that they're removing dualclass, racial level limitations and class restrictions. I don't think a dwarf could ever be a ranger. Dwarves give priority to wealth, and most dwarves are loathe to travel outside their mountainous homes. It'd take a pretty radical-thinking dwarf to come to the conclusion that gold isn't all that important and that the wilderness is actually quite a nice place.
All this talk of skills and multiple professions is starting to make D&D sound more like Ultima Online.
 
Old 01-14-2001, 10:51 PM   #50
Yorick
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The thing about races is that they were meant to be like having another class.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in Basic D&D there was Fighter, Magic-User, Thief and Cleric (a fighter/magic user). The Dwarf and Elf provided a different slant and could play two or more classes at once. That was the point of being NOT human. Racial advantages served to give a reward for playing an unusual and not as identifiable race.

With the evolution of the game it gets further away from the original simplicity - not such a bad thing - but can leave those playing for the first time with the old generation X syndrome of 'options paralysis'. So many choices of toothbrush that you pick none.
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