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Old 11-30-2006, 02:21 PM   #241
robertthebard
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by robertthebard:
Going for the Trifecta...
So, his group believes it's not ok to lie to them, but you can fly plane loads of them into buildings full of them. That's a very hard position to defend, isn't it?
Speculations. No proof. Put him on trial and then we'll know. [/QUOTE]No. We already know. Where was he caught? What is the content of the letter to his father, that was posted by his family? What did he say in the news interview? Or, are you saying that now we have to prove that terrorists flew planes into the towers? You see, it's a very touchy thing, when you start talking about proof. As has already been stated, in posts that must have escaped your attention, the delays for his trial are not the fault of officials at Gitmo, but caused by other prisoners, trying to avoid what they see would be a guilty verdict in a Military Tribunal. The fact that SCOTUS ruled that they aren't constitutional means very little to me at this point, as they ruled that Eminent Domain was constitutional. Not different points, while not directly related, they are related in that they are decisions made by the court that raise eye brows. Military prisoners should be tried at military tribunals, just as Court Martials are conducted by the military. However, as I have already pointed out elsewhere, Judicial branch delays are not the fault of the Administration. They are a separate branch of the government. You, however, continue to maintain, despite all that has been presented, that President Bush has a hard on for him, and that's why he hasn't been tried. Try this, read the information that you link to, instead of the paragraph that fits what you want to say. The delays for his trial are fully explained, in information you provided.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:23 PM   #242
Micah Foehammer
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Quote:
Originally posted by robertthebard:
quote:
Originally posted by Micah Foehammer:
quote:
Originally posted by robertthebard:
Ok, so what I take away from all that is that it's to be implied that Hicks doesn't belong to the group of Muslims that have said it's ok to lie to infidels? Curious.
No, that's not necessarily true.

The Taliban Movement is a Sunni Islamist fundamentalist.

al-Qaeda or al-Qaida (القاعدة, translit: al-Qā`ida; "the Law", "the foundation", or "the base") is an armed Sunni Islamist organization with the stated objective of eliminating foreign influence in Muslim countries, eradicating those they deem to be "infidels", and reestablishing the caliphate. The most prominent members of the group are adherents of Wahhabism or Salafism, two understandings of Islam which have influenced militant groups.

Salafi Muslims are often grouped together with Wahhabi Muslims, although the two movements began independently and originally held opposing views. Wahhabism rejected modern influences, while Salafism sought to reconcile Islam with modernism.[1] Use of the word "Salafi" can be very confusing, as the term has been used by several competing Islamic groups that are known by other names. It can be used to describe a general veneration of early Muslims, or it can be used as another name for political Islamism.

So the answer to the question is - I don't know.

Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Cool. Thanks for the references. They're not saying what Johnny said they were saying though.

Now, what about the Torah?
I know. [img]smile.gif[/img] It was quoted for information purposes, not to take sides. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'll let you handle the Torah.


Yorick - sent you a new pm. Different subject.
[/QUOTE]Ok, so if he belongs to the group that does say it's ok to lie to infidels, then anything he says in confinement is subject to be a lie? Because he would be justified by his faith to do so. In fact, it would seem that he'd almost be obligated to. After all, he's being held by what he sees, or saw, as infidels. Why should he tell the truth?
[/QUOTE]Perhaps he wouldn't. It's conjecture at any rate. If he did lie on the stand, then perjury could be added to the charges.

In the end it doesn't matter, and while its an interesting side topic to debate, it IS a side issue, at least with respect to David Hicks. Hicks' guilt or innocence will be decided on the basis of the charges brought against him for his alleged complicity in the Taliban / Al-Qaeda terrorist organizations. His religion (Islam) is not on trial, and it matters not what sect of Islam he converted to or what it's beliefs are.

The only pertinent point about his truthfulness or not would be to perhaps cast some doubt about the the charges of torture he has brought against his guards / interrogators at Guantanomo. Those charges will have their own day in court as well, most likely.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:39 PM   #243
robertthebard
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Just an aside to the point of delays, it's funny how the fact that the delays are caused by defendant's defense attorneys seems to escape general knowledge. Although, I suppose it would kind of take the spark away from the sensationalists to have the general public know the truth. The lies, or omissions of facts are so much more interesting, and so much more likely to get public attention.
Another aside to this point is simply this; it takes a while to get a day in court. Mr. Hicks isn't the only detainee waiting for a trial, and undoubtably, he isn't the first one in either. So others will come first, no matter what. The courts are kind of like first come, first served, so everybody has to wait their turn. When you overturn the "court" that's scheduled to have your trial, then the whole process has to start over.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:41 PM   #244
Micah Foehammer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by machinehead:
Yes but his writings qualify as more then a mere opinion floating around.
Granted, but an educated opinion or interpretation is still just that. Muslims seem to fight wars over which opinion is correct too.
[/QUOTE]Not that the Muslims have a monopoly on that latter concept, though. [img]smile.gif[/img] Just an aside - nothing to see here. Move along. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 11-30-2006, 03:55 PM   #245
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Micah Foehammer:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by machinehead:
Yes but his writings qualify as more then a mere opinion floating around.
Granted, but an educated opinion or interpretation is still just that. Muslims seem to fight wars over which opinion is correct too.
[/QUOTE]Not that the Muslims have a monopoly on that latter concept, though. [img]smile.gif[/img] Just an aside - nothing to see here. Move along. [img]smile.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE]I didn't say they did.
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Old 11-30-2006, 03:56 PM   #246
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by robertthebard:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by robertthebard:
Going for the Trifecta...
So, his group believes it's not ok to lie to them, but you can fly plane loads of them into buildings full of them. That's a very hard position to defend, isn't it?
Speculations. No proof. Put him on trial and then we'll know. [/QUOTE]No. We already know. Where was he caught? [/QUOTE]I don't know. There's been no trial to determine the truth.
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:00 PM   #247
robertthebard
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Denial is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Where he was caught has never been the question. Can you say "Reaching"?
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:07 PM   #248
Timber Loftis
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Quote:
Originally posted by robertthebard:
Denial is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Where he was caught has never been the question. Can you say "Reaching"?
Can you say "You aren't the decider of fact in his criminal case?" I thought you could. Nothing is established by a trial at this point.

8th Grade Civics answers all our questions about Hicks. At this point in time, he is INNOCENT. I know that for a fact, right now, today, HE IS INNOCENT. I'll stake my life and my reputation as a lawyer on the fact that he is INNOCENT....

[ 11-30-2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:11 PM   #249
robertthebard
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The trial will not be to determine whether or not he was caught in Afghanistan. In so far as I know, that's a given. The lack of a trial, to this point, may look a lot better for the pity party if they can blame it on the US Government as well, but we already know that this isn't the case. It's pretty well documented why he hasn't had a day in court. In fact, it's not even that he hasn't had a day in court, if he's entered a plea. You pretty much enter pleas at an arraignment, which is a day in court, unless the State wasted a lot of my time while they were prosecuting me. Granted, it's been over 20 years, but some things stick with you...
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:48 PM   #250
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by robertthebard:
The trial will not be to determine whether or not he was caught in Afghanistan. In so far as I know, that's a given.
Then he should have been tried already Robert.

Mate I don't know why you're not getting it. What aren't you understanding about the onus of proof? All you are repeating as fact are ALLEGATIONS brought by the Government.

It is alleged he was in Afghanistan
Alleged he was fighting the USA
Alleged he was working for Al Qaeda
Alleged he is a terrorist.

None of this has been proven, none of it taken to court. It may all very well be true, but until it's proven in court the man is innocent and should be charged and tried, or released immediately.

May I point out that two of the three Australians to charge the US with torture, have been released with NO CHARGES laid, no trial and no conviction.

Mamdouh Habib has nothing on him.
And until Hicks is convicted, he is innocent.

You can't keep mouthing off information about him that simply hasn't been proven in court.
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