Is there really life after death?

[Moridin]

Quick questions that popped into my mind while reading this thread.

Why is it that if a person 'hears' voices in their head they are schizophrenic, but if that voice is the voice of God it is ok?

Why do Christians always give examples of atheists turned Christian, but never of Christians turned atheist?

Are we not all atheists? If you do not follow the beliefs of one religion, are you not an atheist to that religion then?

Why is everything good that happens the work of God, but nothing bad is ever attributed to him?

Why can God help a football player catch a football or a baseball player hit a homerun, but he cannot save thousands of millions from dying in wars or from starvation/disasters/etc...?

Don't you think that 'your' life is a little insignificant to an all mighty being...why would he care about you personally, when there are so many other things to worry about/contemplate?

Just questions, not meant to be deragatory

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Moridin: Why do Christians always give examples of atheists turned Christian, but never of Christians turned atheist?

That reminds me of my sig on the Mithril Hall:
Some people lose their faith because heaven shows them too little. But how many people lose their faith because heaven shows them too much?



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Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!

Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Sharpedge: Since we cannot conclusively prove the existence or non-existence of an afterlife I would have to conclude that our only way of reaching any sort of resolution is to ask ourselves whether we have faith or whether we do not. I consider my beliefs to be closest to Christianity, yet I cannot answer the questions raised by Dranmek. I do not have a very good knowledge of the bible at all. My belief is not sustained by words on a page, but by my faith. I have a (some might say ignorant or irrational) belief in God that is so intrinsically a part of my being I cannot conceive of my personality without it. No matter what is quoted to me, no matter how much evidence I see to the contrary, that faith simply cannot die. To return to the topic, I will say that I have faith in a continued existence after death. I cannot prove this belief is correct to any of you, other then to point out that in my heart, I genuinely believe it is the truth. Now don't get me wrong, my faith is not unshakable. I have many questions and many concerns. My problems with the concept of heaven are summed up in this passage: Faith vs. Reason? Anyone care to comment?

Not a christian, but why is Banks assuming that change cannot exist in eternity? Just because life goes on for ever (say it does) why are we assuming that nothng changes in that forever? I don't understand. Eternity might be full of wonders, and endless change. (One theory is that in the absolute, everything that can ever happen and everything that ever will happen (seen from our perspective) is happening *all at once* always and forever. Does this relate??) Please discuss!




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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Zateel: "Bullvye - why not answer Dramnek's questions instead of just quoting a Creed? YOU believe in the Creed, Dramnek_Ulk wanted answers to his questions. As a believer, you should be able to answer those questions. Can you? I am an atheist, and even I can give bible answers to every one of them. I've been waiting for christians to do so." and . "The answers to all Dramnek's questions are in the bible, Zateel. Why don't you give him chapter and verse? " . Fljotsdale, you are an Earthling. Why don't you tell me the most subtle nuances of the entirity of quantum physics and why all things are? You *ARE* from Earth, so why don't you know EVERYTHING that happens and exactly why? . Bullvye never said he was the Pope. He was trying to express his belief. Why don't you try asking a child of three why she loves her mother, and then tell her that that reason isn't good enough for you? I have tremendous respect for your knowledge of the Bible; you know much more than I know- Is that that what you want to hear? Everyone: . . FLJOTSDALE KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE BIBLE THAN ME!!!! and probably most everyone else that has ever visited Ironworks. Relish in that pride, along with the pride you feel for using that gift to make people feel small and ignorant. If you want a Bible quote from me, how about this one... . 1 Corinthians 1:10 (NIV) "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." . because someone cannot understand why God does or does not do things he would like God to do or not do, does not mean God is evil. It means that person has no clue. If the person elects to take a phrase out of a three thousand year old recopied document and think he can accurately assess God's psychological profile, I say that he has a problem, not me. "Clearly" this can be seen. . . Here's another one for you: Matthew 11:25 (NIV) . "At that time Jesus said, 'I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to children." . . I think you understand my point. . It's not how much you know, it's how you use the tiny bit you do know to do good. I'm sorry, and I'll probably regret posting this later, but I hate it when people pick on others who have done nothing but try to contribute in a nice way. This thread was to give constructive and diverse answers for Boowinstheday. You didn't see me asking why a Wiccan can't fire off a lightning bolt "You *are* a witch , aren't you?", etc. . Fljotsdale, I do respect you, but please, just share your gift with others instead of teasing, taunting, and boasting. Perhaps you will change someone's life for the better. .

Hm. Don't know why I deserved a rant. I do not look for praise regarding my knowledge of the bible: I have never said I was an expert. I am not a Theologian, after all! I just have 25 years of bible study under my belt. No big deal - lots of people have studied it much more than I have.

I only asked that Dramnek's questions be answered, rather than quoting the Creed, since christians SHOULD be able to answer him.
What is wrong with that?

I was not aware of taunting and boasting. Teasing? Yes, just a little, in a friendly way, certainly not enough, I would have thought, to call for the above response.

And, btw, Dramnek is not three, and the answers ARE in the bible!

Keep it cool, Zateel!

Epona & Melusine: Thanks!! Much appreciated.

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.



[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: A few more questions perhaps?, if anyone can give precise answers i would be MOST interested...

Dramnek? I'm just waiting for someone else to have a go at your questions - like Yorick, John D Harris, or other well-known (on this forum!) practicing christians.
If they don't come through in the next few days, I'll answer for you, if you like. You don't have to AGREE with the answers, lol!

Yours too, Moridin!

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 10-05-2001).]

I am a little upset with the way this good thread is ending. Boo is going to win the day in his own thread. I have read alot about IWs non faith and faith. I would only give you all an objected view here. And nudge these questions and answers into a thread according ok I will read your responses. And, mybe reply also..? Lets step back and shake hands and I would hope all would help in making sure that if you quote scriptures that they are not taken out of context in any writings. But in a thread only veiwed in a open kind of attitude. Please.. Boo wins the day!

Ride my freinds!

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*\Conan/*

Perhaps a new thread with a title like " Questioning the Bible" would be more appropriate place for a general Bible questioning. I'm all for questioning the bible's proclaimed authority. Humility comes for a price.

Anyway on the original topic....Near death expirience.
Anyone ever have one?
know somebody who had one?
Read about it?

Why is it, that people the world round, of different culture, language, and religion, would all report consistant similarties of expirience?
Is it random neurons firing, as the oxygen diminishes in the blood cells, causing delusions, dreams, or fantasies? I think not. The depth of the individuals expirience's, combined with the statistical collaberations Give creedance to its validity as an expirience beyond our phyiscal bodies.

[Sharpedge]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Not a christian, but why is Banks assuming that change cannot exist in eternity? Just because life goes on for ever (say it does) why are we assuming that nothng changes in that forever? I don't understand. Eternity might be full of wonders, and endless change. (One theory is that in the absolute, everything that can ever happen and everything that ever will happen (seen from our perspective) is happening *all at once* always and forever. Does this relate??) Please discuss!

Assume for a moment that we are dealing with heaven in terms of it being a place. Perhaps not in the same terms as earth being a place, or my flat being a place, but in terms of something which has definable boundaries (i.e. you could point and say "Here is heaven." or "Here is not heaven"). Then take on board all the other assumptions that we are led to believe about heaven. eg: It is a paradise. A perfect place of being. There is no conflict, no suffering and no evil. Now consider that all of this occurs forever. You said:

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: in the absolute, everything that can ever happen and everything that ever will happen (seen from our perspective) is happening *all at once* always and forever

So, if this is the case, how can heaven represent an eternity if it does not contain the antagonistic elements of change? Since there is no negative for comparison, since there is no 'lower' point to grow from (since perfection has already been attainted), how can any sort of growth or change have any meaning? How can it, reasonably, occur?

Wondering slightly away from that: This also relates to my little quote from Robert Louis Stevenson. How can our personality remain intact in a place that will not allow the negative aspects of our being to exist? If my ability to 'think evil thoughts' is removed (since these thoughts are in opposition to the perfection of heaven) do I not then loose my free will? I no longer have the ability to choose between good and evil acts. I am bound to do good. What sort of paradise is this?

It may be that heaven is not a definable place with boundaries that start at A and end at D, it may be a concept that is beyond our ability to comprehend (an excuse I've heard many times), but still I have to wonder: If my concept of hell is so clear, why do I find the concept of heaven equally as terrifying?


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"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.

Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure."

[This message has been edited by Sharpedge (edited 10-05-2001).]

[Liliara]

You would think everyone would have better things to do than to sit around Christian bashing...

Anyways, just want everyone out here to know that your remarks make no diference to us, we have been warned that we would be persecuted, put down, laughed at etc. I for one will continue to pray for you.

As for the questions, instead of answer them on the spur of the moment, I have been reviewing them with another to be sure all avenues are covered. Not that it will make any diference, but I should be posting the answers in a few days.



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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels)

Originally posted by Liliara: You would think everyone would have better things to do than to sit around Christian bashing... Anyways, just want everyone out here to know that your remarks make no diference to us, we have been warned that we would be persecuted, put down, laughed at etc. I for one will continue to pray for you. As for the questions, instead of answer them on the spur of the moment, I have been reviewing them with another to be sure all avenues are covered. Not that it will make any diference, but I should be posting the answers in a few days.

There is a difference between questioning a book and being disrespectful toward religion(s). One thing alot of religions have in common, besides an after-life concept, is suffering persecution. I reject anyone who disrespects anothers personal belief's and/or religion in anyway, But any given book is not the religion, the individuals are.



[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 10-05-2001).]