Cleric to Ranger Dual Class

[Raffin]

I've heard that this is a popular build to use, and would be interested in exploring it (in part because it would help with the early game lack of a cleric in the 5 fighter/1 bard parties I've been trying. I have a few questions, though:

1. I know the build would have cleric restrictions on weapons during the cleric levels, but what about when it is ranger, prior to parity (ie. while cleric class is inactive)? How about once the cleric becomes active again?
2. Does the end build have the ranger extra attack?
3. What's a good time frame to switch from cleric to ranger? I know one of the advantages proposed is that you get a lot of spell slots to fill-around what level is good for this?


Many thanks for the help.
-Raffin

[Black Swan Gauntlet]

1. Once the cleric becomes re-active, the restrictions should return. While you're just a ranger, they won't.
2. No, because that only works with large sword and small sword proficiencies, which you won't be able to use.

On a side note...4 fighters, a cleric, and a bard is a long way from the best combination you can get. A paladin, at least, would make a good leader for your party and has some cleric skills. Try evening things out a bit, and look through your manual at the special abilities - this can help you decide on party composition.
Just don't overthink it, it kinda spoils the fun if you do.

[Raffin]

BSG,

Thanks for the tips. Hmmm...only works with short and large swords? Odd...

My current party is:

1. 1/2 elf bard
2. gnomish fighter (for helmet and con.)
3. Human fighter->mage
4. Human thief->fighter (realizing I need the fighter part more)
5. Human cleric->ranger
6 Human fighter->cleric (for early game coverage, and to get the mace of beatdown, aka giving star)

Only downsides are no pal for pal specials, and no druid for shapeshifting, though if I read things right, the cleric->ranger will have druid spells when both classes become active?

That said, I experiment a lot. Took me a while to get beyond Kuldahar the first time [img]smile.gif[/img]

-Raffin

[krunchyfrogg]

Wow, I thought the ranger extra attack applied with any one handed melee weapon. BTW, you are probably better off with a Ranger > Cleric rather than Cleric > Ranger (or, IMHO a C/R multiclass is best).

[ 10-23-2005, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: krunchyfrogg ]

[Aerich]

You're right, krunchyfrogg, the ranger's extra attack does apply with any one-handed melee weapon, as long as the ranger does not equip a shield.

A note on the cleric--> ranger: I'm not sure where you heard that the dual class is popular. The multiclass is popular, but not the dual. IMO, a dual class build from cleric to ranger is of very little use, especially as bows and sword become restricted weapons (and thus a waste of proficiency points) as soon as the cleric side re-activates.

A cleric to fighter I can understand, for the purposes of getting 5 PP in a bludgeoning melee weapon.

Note that you only get access to the druid spells that a ranger is able to cast. If you want Static Charge or something of comparable level, you will wait a loooong time to get it with this build.

[lost prophet]

IMO id just go for another F_C, one neutral and one good. If you dual them at lvl 13 when they get there fighter class active again they reek havoc. The sheer amount of buffs you can apply at any one time can keep your party marching blindly on when by rights they should already be dead. Just dont make the mistake of having the good cleric spec in maces. no giving star then .

[ister]

Wasn't someone saying that the ranger gets the extra attack EVEN with a two-handed weapon? I haven't checked.

I think the C-R is an OK build. In the end game you have a ranger with more lower level spell slots and access to lower level cleric spell (DoHM), but who doesn't have exceptional strength and is has fewer hit points. Given that high level rangers a pretty weak to start with, this guy is pretty useless. But, depending on when you dual, he is much more effective while the cleric is inactive (extra attack and all), and once the cleric activates he's a much better spell caster than his peers. You trade a weak character later on for a character who really shines in the mid-game.

Still R->C and C-F are both better.

[NobleNick]

Raffin,

I like your party, tell you why in a minute...

@Aerich --> I think he thinks it is popular because it is popular... at least in my parties! Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!

O.K., Raffin, back to you: Aerich is right that the MC Cleric/Ranger is much more popular than the DC. And he is also mostly correct that a DC Cleric/Ranger is --how can I put this delicately-- not an optimum build. So, why use it? Well it facilitates a good party build for the narrow set of circumstances where you are: A.) Playing an IWD game -AND- the expansions (HoW or HoW/TotLM); and B.) You are playing on Normal difficulty (no HoF mode); and C.) You are optimizing your party to kick major monster tush. Here is the story from my knot hole...

IWD/HoW is designed such that muscular parties do well; but Cleric power and Arcane power are also important. The design challenge is to cram as much WALLOP!! into the **END GAME** party as possible, and still have it be fun to play in the early to mid game. (The whole idea is to have fun. For me, fun is having the most kick-assassin party in the late game, with enough of the game left over for me to thoroughly enjoy my creations.)

The IWD + HoW/TotLM game offers just the right amount of XP to allow you to build and thoroughly enjoy an X(17 to 21) or a DC X(13)/Y(14+) or MC X(14+)/Y(14+) --> where "X" and "Y" are whatever legal combination of classes you want. This is sweet, because it just so happens that about 90% of the wholesome grain goodness of a straight class Fighter(17) can be packed into a DC F(13)/Y(14+)

I have done the proofs in many earlier posts, so will simply state the conclusion here: The Fighter with stacked PP is far and away the most effective melee character you can have. A group of Fighters, each with *EXACTLY* TWO (2) **WELL THOUGHT OUT** specializations is the best melee machine you can build. You want as many Fighters as you can get. Cleric, Mage and Thief skills are also important. So the obvious solution is to DC or MC the Fighter with the other skills you need. But when picking MC or DC, you must remember that the only characters that can stack past 2 PP are the Straight Class Fighter and the DC Fighter. (The Ranger, Paladin, MC Fighter and MC/DC Ranger are limited to 2 PP.)

So what does all this have to do with a DC/MC R/C or C/R? Hold on just a bit longer...

Cleric power is in high demand throughout the game, and in VERY high demand in HoW/TotLM, to keep those Fighters fighting, instead of just drooling on the cave floor. And there comes a point where a moderate dose of Mage and Druid power adds more offensive punch then another Fighter. A first attempt a novice might make at a "power party" might look something like this:

F(13)/C
F(13)/C
F(13)/D
F(13)/T
F(13)/M
F(13)/M

The first two characters reflect lost prophet's advice; and this is an EXTREMELY GOOD late game combo. But there are two very big problems with this party: The first problem is that for virtually all of IWD, this party *IS* simply a group of 6 Fighters, and they are going to have lots problems with no cleric, mage, or thief power. The second problem is that after the DC, this part has *NO* Fighters for a very long time: more problems. This is not fun, so we need to make adjustments.

Let's ignore the Mage and Thief problems this party has, and focus on the first two characters. To get some cleric power into the early to mid game, and Fighter power immediately after the DC, we could change the 2nd character to get this:

F(13)/C
C(13)/F

This ensures very little time is spent without a Cleric and a Fighter; although the C/F will have fewer HP than the F/C. Something that can be done to pump a little more power into the character, and at the same time add some variety into the party, is to make the C/F into a C/R. That way the Ranger can leverage the many priest spell slots to use for Druid spells. The penalty is that this character can only go to 2 PP in a weapon instead of 5 PP. This is a big penalty; but is partially offset by the racial enemy bonus and stealth abilities; and is, in my opinion, worth it to get mass late game access to low-level Druid spells.

The C/R could be a MC C/R with no further penalties; and this is a very viable choice. But, since this is the party's only Cleric in the early game, I prefer to DC to get as much early Cleric power as possible. Another advantage is that after the DC, all XP goes into the Ranger.

So, although the MC R/C is a mainstay, I think your DC F/C and DC C/R combo are an excellent choice; and now you know why.

For reasons that, again, have been delineated elsewhere: A Bard singing to 4 Fighters is more potent than 5 Fighters and no Bard. Also, the Bard gives the needed early game access to magic. Making this substitution, and you... SHAZAAAAAMM!! have the party I am currently playing:

DC F(13)/C
DC C(13)/R
DC F(13)/D
DC F(13)/T
DC F(13)/M
H-Elf Bard

This is a Thief-less party in the early game. I have had to "hire" in a Thief (seventh character, replaces the F/M) for certain parts of the game. But I have not needed one as often as I thought I was going to.

I hope you found this interesting.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[krunchyfrogg]

Yeah, but a Fighter and Ranger basically max out their power at level 13 (I know they gain more power after this, but it is minimal), while a spellcaster keeps getting more powerful at every level in this game. That's why you really want (in general, I know there are some exceptions) to dual class FROM a Fighter or Thief (Thieves max out their usefulness too) INTO a spellcasting class.

[Raffin]

Nick,

Thanks for the tips there-it helps to be able to understand the pros and cons.

As for bard, well, being able to get the 5000 xp or so extra in Easthaven, plus songs, magic, and pick pockets is well worth it, IMO. That, and if you give him 15 str or greater and a composite bow he's a beautiful archer for the early game.

Some of my best fun in the first part of IWD has been with parties like this, with 6 characters with bows mowing down all the orcs before they can melee (and the four-five orges in the cave...I play insane).

So once I get the game up and running again (re. Unexplained Deletions thread) I'm trying this build.

-Raffin