New things I noticed....

[Bungleau]

While gaming in the Serpent Temple last night, I noticed...

... that the monkey with the idol materializes outside the room that the other monkey materializes in. No luck in trying to trap him in that room with you by closing the gate.

... that you could impact the game severely right there. As I discovered in Missy's adventures, if you click on the lock to Kerah's secret room, the door will close again, and you won't be able to get back in there. If you happen to do that and the monkey's on the other side... you're toast. You may be able to vanish in there to get the idol, but that would be your only chance. Fortunately, if you've caught up on your reading of Stackman's party's adventures, you will know that you can also stack up a ladder to reach Kreug's study up there.

... Xydusa, when you first appear in the Serpent Temple, is immune to at least fire damage, and I suspect everything. But attacking her will tick off the rest of the serpent priests, and you won't get the real opportunity to join the temple (and buy all their serpin coins). That was a restart moment...

... Without the merchant trait, Takekatsu arrows have a roughly 5:1 resale value. It gets better with merchant....

[jsalsb]

All very interesting and astute observations!

I wonder how many "game killers" we can discover. I.e., situations like your locking the monkey in Kerah's shrine room, that make the game unbeatable, but which don't make that apparent at the moment you do it. The game protects you from getting rid of quest items you will definitely need later, but what about actions like the one you pointed out? The designers probably thought of most, and patched some they forgot (like the elevator bug). What's left.

Looks like a job for SuperRadek!

[aleph_null1]

Originally posted by jsalsb: I wonder how many "game killers" we can discover. I.e., situations like your locking the monkey in Kerah's shrine room, that make the game unbeatable, but which don't make that apparent at the moment you do it.

Actually, this game is fairly unique in that I don't think there ARE any serious "game killers" ...

... Name any situation you can possibly imagine, and I bet one of us has gotten around it by stacking, Vanishing, jamming a chest into some opening, gratuitously murdering an NPC, or some combination thereof ...

(Note on the third: The only (I thought) real "game killer" I've ever had was when some of the glowstones never spawned -- believe me, I looked, they just weren't there! -- and I solved it by jamming a chest into the spinning door so as to creatively reuse the only glowstone I had.)

[jsalsb]

Yeah, I've NEVER got all the glowstones, and always had to jam chests in the doors.

There must be some game killing situations we can come up with if we think hard enough - if we are actually setting out to try to stall the game progress??

[Radek]

I have met only one real "game killer" in W&W, namely, the fake Xydusa blocking your way to the lever. This cannot be mended, you have lost your game unless you have a saved game before your first entering the temple.

There are some nasty traps in the game, which almost equal "game killers". An example:
If you enter Boogre Prison then you can invoke the Ghost of Grunaxe at some moment. The ghost will vanish from the game when you leave the prison.
Suppose now, that the character, which has entered the prison, was a bulldozer that was supposed to cleanse the way for another character sitting in the inn and having the Grunaxe quest. The character with the quest will never meet the Ghost of Grunaxe, he vill never be able to finish the quest, and he won't be able to get the Shrew Chishi quest. Summary: the character cannot reach level 6 in Bushi Dojo. The Enlightement trait is lost.

The other problems can be solved somehow - if your game is fully functional. If you lock the Monkey with the Object at Kerah or if the monkey wasn't spawned at all then you can stack crates to the Kreug's office. If you don't get the second glowstone, then you can jam the damned carousel. Well, I'll be frank, I wasn't succesful with the jamming method. But I was always able to get all glowstones.
There is another possible problem in Collasium. It can happen that there is a meermaid immediately behind the door opened by a lever on your way to the second glowstone. The door will kill the meermaid. The meermaid will drop a trident, which will jam the door. You cannot pass. Vanish does not work here.
Solution: Leave the dungeon completely and return. The trident will be removed and the door will open.

[jsalsb]

Well! That nips that one in the bud! Another case closed courtesy of your friendly neighbourhood SuperRadek! Unless someone else has something to add?? Bungleau? bsftcs? Anyone?

[aleph_null1]

Originally posted by Radek: I have met only one real "game killer" in W&W, namely, the fake Xydusa blocking your way to the lever. This cannot be mended, you have lost your game unless you have a saved game before your first entering the temple.

So far, I've always had Xydusa #1 block that hallway. I seriously cannot recall a time when she was NOT stuck there.

Now, that said, I've always been able to jump over/around her on one side of the wall...

[bsftcs]

@jsalsb

Not really - apart from the hypothetical ones. There is a bug concerning the lava pool in Skull Castle (the one underneath the niche where the relic is situated). At some point there it is possible to fall through the lava, but not all the way to the bottom. Dropped items, however, fall all the way to bottom. So in theory one could go to the pyramid, retrieve the champions' kays, go back to Skull Castle and drop them in the lava pool there. That would be a game killer - but one would have to work hard to achieve it.

[Kakero]

Originally posted by Bungleau: Xydusa, when you first appear in the Serpent Temple, is immune to at least fire damage, and I suspect everything. But attacking her will tick off the rest of the serpent priests, and you won't get the real opportunity to join the temple (and buy all their serpin coins). That was a restart moment...

There's no need to restart. You can continue the game with the temple priests hostile to you. However there'll be one that won't hostile to you. The serpent coins will have a chance to drop when you kill any serpent priest.

[Radek]

@ Aleph_Null1

Right. Usually, you can jump over a pillar in the passage, where the fake Xydusa is hanging. But the fake Xydusa can be hanging such a way that she blocks the the whole "profile" with her head. You cannot jump over her in this case.

This has already happened to me. I didn't lost my game only because I didn't leave the temple since my first entering it so that I was able to solve the problem with Revert Adventures.