Samurai (again?)

[Ziggurat]

I have had bad development with Sams in the past but this one is starting to outshine all the rest of the party. Here are his stats:

Lev 10
Str = 75
Int = 60
Pie = 35
Vit = 60
Dex = 64
Spd = 69
Sen = 51

Doesn't look special does it?

With Samurais maybe you have to make them good all-around.

He has many more kills than the Bard and Valkyrie (the Alchemist is minimal on kills, 28 vs. 150 for the Sam, but he's getting better). The Bard and Valkyrie are behind by 20 or more, I thought they would outshine him in battle.

Anyway, the Sam must have done something right although the stats don't show it. He hits every time and is now doing 40-50 damage per turn, and got an extra strike in. It seems counter-intuitive to me. The stats aren't that great. Any similar experiences with a Samurai?

[Nightowl2]

I have never had any luck with Samurai. No matter what, they've never been much better than average in any of my games. That includes times when I went in and manually "adjusted" stats and skills. Even that didn't help. I don't think I ever saw more than one lightning strike in a whole game.

You seem to be having some good luck with your guy. Hang on to him!

Nightowl2

[Starfire]

I'm running a sam with somewhat similiar stats, I've been taking turns building up strength, dex, speed and senses and I have noticed a vast improvement with this one than I have previous Sammy's I've run. Perhaps balancing out a Sam's stats is better than working just two till maxed? Who knows? all I know is this Sammy seems to be so much better than others I've run.

wow, zig, you know this topic is one i'd love to know the answer to!

what else can you tell us about him? race? current weapon? how about skill development... is he casting? is he doing dual sword or sword and shield... or 2h sword? have you done any training?

it just may be that developing the attributes in a balanced fashion is what's needed, but i'd like to know more so i can learn from the whole approach.

cheers [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Scatter]

Regarding Lightning Strike: If your Carry is anything but white, it won't happen. And in the Sam's personal inventory, the lighter your load, the more you get.
If i'm running a Sam, i also run a haster. Sometimes i've run a Bard-to-Sam, in which case i raise Spd. Otherwise, i go Str 3/Vit 1/Dex 2 until Dex reaches 80, then Str is usually maxxed about that level, and it goes to Vit 2/Dex 2/ Sen 2. Haste covers Spd. My Sam's get a noticable amount of Lightnings; my latest got her first one on King Crab, got one on Gregor, and in just about all the longer battles had one. I also wear Ankh of Dex and Ankh of Speed with a Sam.

(edit) Forgot something: the weight of your weapon and its Initiative have something to do with lightning strikes, too.

[ 11-15-2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Scatter ]

[Ziggurat]

Will let you know more stats on the Samarai. Not tonight. He has good sword and combat skills. Using the Bloodlust and the plain wakasashi. Getting lots of Tiger Strikes recently, OK, maybe every other battle. Best I have seen in a while, he is lev 11 now. I have had some Sams that got maybe one TS per game. I've had about 5 this game. Go figure.

[Ziggurat]

OK, I wasn't planning on doing this:

Sam lev 11 Dracon

Str = 77
Int - 65
Pie = 35
Vit = 60
Dex = 67
Spd = 70
Sen = 51

Close combat = 65
Dual = 53
Critical = 48
Sword = 82 with bonus

Getting IK and TS.

I don't know what the magic combination is. Maybe that is why the Samurai is so mysterious?? And hard to develop?

atlus 7's work on samurais preaches the wisdom of balance. in that case, he was referring to balancing magic against melee, but perhaps the concept extends further into stats.

the other thread about maxing stats vs. building many stats made me think - perhaps maxing stats works best only when you level quickly and a) build their few skills quickly and b) level fast enough that extra points can be put into other stats before too long.

i've wanted to try building a straight fighter putting 2pts per level into strength, and 1pt each into the other 4 physical stats, just to compare, but havent gotten around to it...

[Hermit Boy]

I thought I would use this thread to ask my own questions about my Samurai.

I do not have his stats in front of me, but here is about what they are.

Felpurr Samurai LVL 9 (These are all approximate)

STR 53
INT 40
PIE 30
VIT 50
DEX 86
SPD 90
SEN 53

Sword 60 before bonus
Close Combat 55
Dual Weapon 55

He is using Bloodlust and a normal Wakizashi (sp?). Anyway, he is pretty good, and attacks around 6-8 times per turn. However, he misses like crazy. Out of the 6-8 attacks he lands maybe 2-3 at most.

When he does hit, he does great damage with Bloodlust. He seems to hit more often with the Wakizashi than with Bloodlust. Is there something about Bloodlust that causes misses more often? Or is his SEN or STR not high enough?

I was trying to hit 100 on DEX and SPD, but I am starting to think that is not as important.

Any advice is appreciated!

oh, hermit boy, if only wiz 8 was that simple! i'll tell you what i know "in principle", but with the caveat that, on a practical level, i've yet to develop a samurai i love...

1) bloodlust causes the attacker to always attack in beserk mode. while this can add swings and damage, it reduces your chance to hit (due to being wild, i suppose).

with a fighter or rogue you hardly notice it. but hybrids in particular show up this weakness a bit more. there are for two reasons for this.

1a) hybrids start with their attribute points spread out across more stats. notably they have minimums in intelligence or piety, and fewer bonus points. this means they learn skills slower (so have less skill at any point in the game compared to a similarly developed fighter or rogue) AND their attributes arent high enough to compensate for their lower skills. (see point 2 below)

1b) hybrids spread their actions and learning across more skills. when you cast spells in combat, you dont have a chance to learn a point in sword, or close combat, or dual weapons, or critical strike. similarly, when you level up, there's a lot more places that need attention! so, again, their skill development is hampered.

and this is without even mentioning the slower level ups!

2) raw attributes can compensate for low skills. strength, dex, and senses all add to a character's chances to do damage, regardless of weapon (or academic) skill. the largest bonuses come from dex, which adds to your chances to hit and penetrate. strength and senses offer similar bonuses, but they operate slightly differently: senses increases the chances to hit, strength increases the chance to penetrate.

as noted in (1a) above, hybrids have their skills spread across a wide range of stats. as such, they will have less in str, dex, and senses compared to pure melee'rs.

so what does this all mean?

well, regarding development, i would suggest keep pumping dex, first and foremost. and now that you have speed at 90, start putting points into str or senses instead with the other 3 level up points. speed at 90 gives you the +2 to AC, which is the most you'll get there, and getting the benefits of other attributes would seem more prudent compared to opening up snake speed.

personally, i'd recommend strength, for two reasons. the first is that it adds to damage and stamina as well. the more swings you get, the more stamina you need, and since you're primary attack is melee (sword), strength adds a damage multiplier that's really valuable to have.

the second reason is related to my second recommendation regarding weapon. i'd go ahead and keep the bloodlust, but consider putting down the wakizashi for a couple of levels. by going back to one-handed, you'll remove the dual-weapons penalty, which will help your missing problems. this mitigates the need to boost to-hit via building senses.

but dont get me wrong - long-term, you'll want to get that second sword re-equipped. just wait a couple levels (say around 11 or 12), when your skills will be much better, before you put it back on. in the meantime, consider dropping 3 pts at each level up into dual weapons, sword, and close combat.

whew, that's a bit more than i planned to write... sounds good in theory, i wonder why i've never been able to put it in practice?! [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img]

good luck! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-20-2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: sultan ]