Is there really life after death?

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: These are claims that the Bible itself does not make. Where in the Bible does it claim to be the infallible, totally consistent word of God? It is NOT necessary to believe such things to be a Christian.

It doesn't matter whether the bible makes these claims or not! If someone applies for a job, people ask for references. They want another person, separate from the applicant and who has no vested interest in the applicant getting the job, to back up the applicant's claims.

All holy books claim they are inspired by god. (And maybe they are? Who knows?) What I say is, prove it.

But it's unlikely, in my opinion. Why would god create two sexes, for example, and give one superiority and authority over the other? A recipe for inhumanity, abuse, exploitation - disaster, in fact. And disaster is what has resulted. It's only relatively recently that women have begun to recover from the outrages perpetuated upon them by 200 years of Christianity. (Not just Christianity. Other religions have this same element.)

This kind of UTTER CRAP does lead me to believe that man (rather than woman) had more than just a hand in writing the bible. God, my Aunt Fanny. Are you Christians all simple, or something?? Much power is vested in the idea of a book which is an 'authority', which contains 'truth'. It can be used to perpetuate all kinds of injustice, and has been!



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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Bullvye: My statement in responce to Dramnek_Ulk's post was only intended to be a declaration of my own beliefs, and a suggestion to further research scripture to find his own answers. Knowing that the Holy Spirit works through the Word, my hope was that God, not me, would give him( or her...?) the answers that he was looking for. After all " Faith comes by hearing, and hearing, by the Word of God" As for my own knowledge of the bible, and my personal ability to answer his questions I assure you that I am capable. But if your intentions are to provoke me to answer Dramnek_Ulk, in the hopes of flamming my answer, I would kindly like to extend to YOU the chance to pose any questions to me that YOU might have. This chance would either allow me call to mind an answer from memory, or return me to scripture for answers, both bringing me closer to the Lord whom I serve. Truly a WIN, WIN situation for me.

Kind of puzzled about all this reading holy books. All the threads I've seen focusing on Christian beliefs in god seem to be very much based on quotes from the bible, arguing about the validity of the bible and so on.

Sure, why not, in the first instance, a book is a useful way of finding out about 'stuff', but what about direct experience? The day to day connection with the divine? There doesn't seem to be much about that, and to my mind, it's the most important element. All this bible stuff is just getting away from the subject, no? History and geography, great... but why get so hung up on a load of stuff that's happened so far back in the past? Let's face it, things have changed, and what 'might' have been relevant way back when, might not be so relevant now.

I find all this scripture quoting just bizarre. Why not answer questions on god with your own thoughts? If god made us, then I'm sure s/he considers our views on matters just as important as his/her own. All this endless quoting back and forwards and arguing from the bible just seems to me irrelevant. It's all to do with interpretation anyway, and that is going to change according to your own personal, subjective view.



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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Neb]

Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: 126. Throughout the Bible, your god commands his followers to wage merciless war on unbelievers (Luke 22:36, Deuteronomy 13:8, Exodus 20:23-25, Deuteronomy 20:16, Matthew 10:34, Numbers 31:17-18, etc). If you are one of his followers, why aren't you out waging merciless war on unbelievers? (Remember that the Bible was written by humans and some of them might have found it convenient that God had told them to kill the non-believers so they could gather support for their war.) 127. Numbers 23:21 says that your god "has not seen wickedness in Israel." If this is so, explain why your god burned Israelites for complaining (Num 11:1). (Possibly this was written by the christians in order to prevent questions being asked because then they would be burned for it.) 139. If even the contemplation of sinning is a sin (i.e. "sinning in your heart"; see, for example, Matthew 5:28) and if Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert (Matthew 4:5-8, Luke 4:5-9), how can you say that Jesus was without sin? (Jesus, even though he was the son of God(Even though I think he was just a normal person who said some clever stuff.), was a mortal, and all mortals are fallible, noone is perfect.) 35. Explain why prayer is OK, but spell casting is not, when both amount to the same thing: requesting that a superior supernatural force intercede in a way that would be impossible according to the normally accepted laws of physics. (Prayer is asking the diety to do something while spellcasting is manipulating the supernatural force yourself.)

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Worshipper of Tiax.
Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.
Member of the HADB clan.

Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy
General of the highest class and Leader of the Legal Department in the IW Peacekeeping Force.
ORT member, Official Demander of Stuff.

"If Silence is golden, why does everyone talk so much?"

[Silver Cheetah]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bullvye:
Knowing that the Holy Spirit works through the Word, my hope was that God, not me, would give him( or her...?) the answers that he was looking for. After all " Faith comes by hearing, and hearing, by the Word of God" [quote]

The Holy Spirit works through the Word. What I don't understand is why god is so lazy!! What you seem to be saying is that he inspired a book to be written, in bits and pieces, admittedly, a very long time ago indeed, and since then, has had nothing to say on any subject? Are there any other writings which Christians would accept as being 'inspired', perhaps of a more recent date, and which have more relevance to situations and events in today's world?

If god is omnipotent, and omnipresent, I can't see why that would present any difficulty. (I am not being flip, I truly believe this.) I cannot understand why Christians insists on hearking back to the bible all the time, when there is inspiration everywhere. May I recommend a book called 'Conversations with God', channelled by an American called Neale Donald Walsch. Whether it is inspired by god or not I have no idea, however, it talks a lot of sense, and I find it way more relevant than the bible.

To my mind, the bible contains one statement that - if we were to take it to heart and live it truly - would cause love, peace and happiness to flourish throughout the world. That statement is 'love thy neighbour as thyself'.

However, some practical help on how we go about truly loving (and for that matter, being) our true selves (impossible to love anyone else without that being in place) would be useful. The bible tends to fall down on that side of things. The big hole in christian teaching, to my mind. That's where 'Conversations with God' comes in. Bridge that gap, guys and gals, and let's make the world a better place.



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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Zateel]

From Silver Cheetah, "To my mind, the bible contains one statement that - if we were to take it to heart and live it truly - would cause love, peace and happiness to flourish throughout the world. That statement is 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. "
.

Matthew 19:19, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Galatians 5:14
.
On this point I agree. However, this is the *second* greatest commandment. And in the case of Galations 5:14, it states that this sums up the entire law.
.
As far as my *own* thoughts, I believe that there a great deal of people living today who cannot see outside their own experiences, whose parameters for reality are set by what they can imagine, and not by what is unimaginable. Good and evil are always seen by these people from their own points of view, nearly always towards the benefit of themselves. I think "egocentric" is the word for which I search.
.
What is nearly universal among Christians and non-Christians alike is presumption that humans innately know God's motives, and that God's thought processes and reasoning are based only upon whatever that particular person has knowledge (and mostly indirect knowledge at that) in the person's <100 year life-span.
.
The arguments of Bible validity and Christian belief are not the same, nor are they dependent upon one another.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Zateel: From Silver Cheetah, "To my mind, the bible contains one statement that - if we were to take it to heart and live it truly - would cause love, peace and happiness to flourish throughout the world. That statement is 'love thy neighbour as thyself'. " . Matthew 19:19, Mark 12:31, Luke 10:27, Galatians 5:14 . On this point I agree. However, this is the *second* greatest commandment. And in the case of Galations 5:14, it states that this sums up the entire law. . As far as my *own* thoughts, I believe that there a great deal of people living today who cannot see outside their own experiences, whose parameters for reality are set by what they can imagine, and not by what is unimaginable. Good and evil are always seen by these people from their own points of view, nearly always towards the benefit of themselves. I think "egocentric" is the word for which I search. . What is nearly universal among Christians and non-Christians alike is presumption that humans innately know God's motives, and that God's thought processes and reasoning are based only upon whatever that particular person has knowledge (and mostly indirect knowledge at that) in the person's <100 year life-span. . The arguments of Bible validity and Christian belief are not the same, nor are they dependent upon one another.

Zateel, I'm sorry, not quite clear as to the point(s) you are making here. Could you be a little more explicit? Thanks......

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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Liliara: You would think everyone would have better things to do than to sit around Christian bashing... Anyways, just want everyone out here to know that your remarks make no diference to us, we have been warned that we would be persecuted, put down, laughed at etc. I for one will continue to pray for you. As for the questions, instead of answer them on the spur of the moment, I have been reviewing them with another to be sure all avenues are covered. Not that it will make any diference, but I should be posting the answers in a few days.

Originally posted by Liliara: You would think everyone would have better things to do than to sit around Christian bashing... Anyways, just want everyone out here to know that your remarks make no diference to us, we have been warned that we would be persecuted, put down, laughed at etc. I for one will continue to pray for you. As for the questions, instead of answer them on the spur of the moment, I have been reviewing them with another to be sure all avenues are covered. Not that it will make any diference, but I should be posting the answers in a few days.

Liliara - I don't think anyone is christian-bashing!

You must be aware yourself that there are many things in the bible that DEMAND to be answered. In fact, the apostle Paul made a point of saying that christians should 'examine the scriptures daily' in order to 'prove' for themselves 'the good and acceptable word of God'. 'Examining' means asking questions - including the questions that various people have raised in this thread. And since the answers are to be found in the bible, how can it be christian-bashing to ask christians to ANSWER those questions?
It seems like a reasonable request to me.

I'm really pleased you intend to post answers! I look forward with interet!



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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Zateel: First off, an apology to Fljotsdale. I am ashamed I allowed myself to become so angered. I know too well that you enjoy "the thrill" of debate.

That's ok, Zateel!

Now make with the answers, lol!

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: It doesn't matter whether the bible makes these claims or not! If someone applies for a job, people ask for references. They want another person, separate from the applicant and who has no vested interest in the applicant getting the job, to back up the applicant's claims. All holy books claim they are inspired by god. (And maybe they are? Who knows?) What I say is, prove it.

Well, I agree with you, Silvery one. But my point was directed to a particular audience, namely those who do assume that the Bible is the totally infallible word of God. Since such people tend to claim that their beliefs are derived from the Bible, my question is where does that belief about the Bible itself come from.

Of course you are correct that even if the Bible claimed in every other line to be the infallible word of God, it would not mean we have to believe it for a second.

However, in this case, we have people claiming that the Bible is the ultimate authority for religious beliefs, being the inspired infallible word of God, when that same ultimate authority makes no such claim. So what is the origin of said belief? Obviously, it is from a source OUTSIDE the Bible itself.

Again, this line of reasoning is only relevant for those who take such a position on the Bible to begin with. As has been said above by several people, it is not necessary to take such a stance on the Bible to be a Christian.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: Well, I agree with you, Silvery one. But my point was directed to a particular audience, namely those who do assume that the Bible is the totally infallible word of God. Since such people tend to claim that their beliefs are derived from the Bible, my question is where does that belief about the Bible itself come from

Gotcha, Dio (just so bizarre that that means god in Italian, as I've pointed out before, and yes, I know it's not you that calls yourself Dio, it's the rest of us. Diogenes is such a mouthful. 4 syllables, no less! That's quite something, to get four syllables out of an eight letter word...

I get the impression, reading the above posts, that many of us on this thread are waiting with bated breath for the answers.

(Cheetah is sitting nicely and patiently, paws tucked in and tail curled at just the correct angle, singing happy little waiting songs to herself....)

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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 10-06-2001).]