Thieving Attributes.

Charlie · 03-19-2001, 06:41 PM

Some are ok and I understand both the attribute and the need to increase your proficiency in some of them. Others on the other hand are mind boggling and I can see neither the use or point of their implementation. In the skills to which you can add points to on level up you will see -

Move Silently. Err why?

If you can move silently and creep up on someone from behind then surely you should also be able to backstab them without the need for shadows. If I was never to put a point into any other skill bar move silently how will this help my thief? Is it possible that even though my thief has 200% (for example) in hide in shadows that he can be heard approaching...I think not.

Checking in the manual for answers only served to increase my confusion. Page 124 of the English manual lists all the thieving base scores as follows -

Pick Pockets - 15%
Open Locks - 10%
Find/Remove traps - 5%
Move Silently - 10%
Hide in Shadows - 5%
Detect Noise - 15%
Climb Walls - 60%
Read Languages - 0%

Well I'm baffled by some of them and their % figures. Even though I can't see or figure out the points behind their inclusion my logical head says there must be a reason. Going on the above base scores I must assume that my thief (providing he's sober and rested) has a 10% chance to silently climb a wall to sit upon in order to read a book or scroll that he's stolen. He has a 40% chance of falling off of the wall, and should he make it to the top of the wall he has absolutely no chance to read the stolen tome anyway. If he does make it safely to the top he then has a 15% chance of hearing any other thieves climbing up the opposite side of the wall in order to peruse their stolen undecipherable tomes too. Any ideas?

Baffled from London.

------------------
One love, peace.

Charean · 03-19-2001, 07:34 PM

Don't fall off the wall or you will break you head!

Seriously, I haven't seen the need for a few of those statistics... except in PnP games... in computer land, they simply cannot account for all of that at once (fer heaven's sake, it slows when you have several spells cast at once!)

------------------

Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?
Wandering Joke of the Laughing Hyenas
Laughter can be a Mighty Weapon - when wielded with pizazz and accuracy! What Ho!!

250 · 03-19-2001, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Charean:
in computer land, they simply cannot account for all of that at once (fer heaven's sake, it slows when you have several spells cast at once!)

that was the first non-magical way to alter time. it was said the mage who developed time stop got the idea from that...

Jimbo · 03-19-2001, 09:12 PM

One affects the other is why. If you hide, and are not moving it is very easy to be hidden, now try and move and remain that quite and hidden. That is why there are two checks, are you hidden, and how well did you move. A failure in either would mean that the person heard you coming and could ready themselves for your attack.
That list is from the AD&D manual if I rember correctly.
Pick Pockets - 15% how you steal something from some one
Open Locks - 10% picking the lock
Find/Remove traps - 5% disarming the trap (hey we get to be sappers/enginers)
Move Silently - 10% how well you move and stay undetected
Hide in Shadows - 5% how well you hid
Detect Noise - 15% this was for detecting other hidden npc
Climb Walls - 60% climbing up stuff
Read Languages - 0% a thief eventually at level 10 could gain the ability to read magic scrolls and to cast from scroll this affected how they could do that, and if they could figure out codes and languages of new people/races
They kinda had the thief doing all the spy/rogue/assasin/stealth/scout thing.

Hope that helps, and yes it probably does cause some lag.

------------------
Drink and be merry

Jimbo

"Renegade, Rebel, and Rogue"

Charlie · 03-19-2001, 11:34 PM

Yeah thanks Jimbo, but are detect noise, move silently, climb walls and read the unreadable incorporated in the game? If not then why put them in the manual?
Why are detect noise and read languages not in the options that you can apply stat's to when move silently is? Why is move silently incorporated when it appears to serve no purpose? If you are hidden in shadows but are noisy this should reveal your location and prompt an attack by your would be target....it doesn't. You can have 0% in move silently yet still walk up and stand behind a target all day long without risk of detection unless you leave the shadows. Detect illusion incidentally isn't listed in the manual as a thief attribute per-se, yet you can still assign points to it. This one is more straightforward mind you.

If my thief has the ability to hear noise he should let me know about it. If he can climb a wall I'd like to watch it. If he's noisy I'd like to hear it and if he can't read I'd like to laugh about it.

Still baffled from London.

------------------
One love, peace.

250 · 03-19-2001, 11:36 PM

I think, fi your "move silently" is not high enough, enemies can detect foot step noise. and enemy mage will began casting detecting spells such as true seen...

Charlie · 03-19-2001, 11:42 PM

Aah good call 250. Is that definitely correct or is it summisation? Sounds good to me anyway (pardon the pun.) Only 3 more to go

------------------
One love, peace.

[This message has been edited by Charlie (edited 03-19-2001).]

Altranan · 03-20-2001, 05:10 AM

I don't know if this helps but...my thief can hide in shadows quite happily, but if I try to get her to do a bit of slinking around enemies she will come out of shadows and be set upon. I surmised that this was either to do with her not having high enough "move silently" percentages or the foe (now dead, in a much more traditional manner) having too high "detect noise" scores. So, like most things in this world it was probably a bit of each.
Doubt this helps, I just wanted to chip in.

The Shadwell Assasin

03-20-2001, 08:07 AM

A few critters can spot hidden characters, but you need Move Silently to move while hidden

Jimbo · 03-21-2001, 10:32 AM

Okay, now to try and help clear up your questions when I'm awake and can think clearer

, ahh... much better.

Okay
----------------
Yeah thanks Jimbo, but are detect noise, move silently, climb walls and read the unreadable incorporated in the game? If not then why put them in the manual?
Why are detect noise and read languages not in the options that you can apply stat's to when move silently is? Why is move silently incorporated when it appears to serve no purpose? If you are hidden in shadows but are noisy this should reveal your location and prompt an attack by your would be target....it doesn't. You can have 0% in move silently yet still walk up and stand behind a target all day long without risk of detection unless you leave the shadows. Detect illusion incidentally isn't listed in the manual as a thief attribute per-se, yet you can still assign points to it. This one is more straightforward mind you.
If my thief has the ability to hear noise he should let me know about it. If he can climb a wall I'd like to watch it. If he's noisy I'd like to hear it and if he can't read I'd like to laugh about it.
---------------------------------------------

The manual is a small reprint of the players handbook, I'm thinking its the 2nd edition players hand book and not shure which printing. Detect Illusion isn't mentioned in part of the book, but i think there is part of it at the begining. The begining part of the manual covers the little bit that is diffrent than from the PnP AD&D.

Now as to what shows as being in and what not. Go hide infront of Rivald in the Adventure mart, he will cast true sight. Also, you can have problems trying to hide around people (more people have seen you), and depending upon how lighted the area is around you (does it provide natural cover and concealment). As you are walking and hidden and moving silently, you will get checks every so often on whether or not you were hidden and stealthing. The better you skill the better you stay out of sight and out of mind. It also checks against the other npcs. Some npcs (elfs and others) are better at seeing things hidden, for example you can detect a trap with out a thief if you sit there long enough. I think this is in as my archer detected a trap with out me bringing up my thief.

It is hard in the game to walk up and hide in plain sight of people, and some of them will cast a true seeing or start detecting for you.

The idea is that you use a thief to catch a thief or to foil a thief. Its like the best way to kill a tank is with a tank, a jet with a jet, a grunt with a grunt, a sub with a sub, etc...

So, if you can hide, but you can't be stealth moving, you will be heard by the other characters, more likely by the ones who can detect hidden things easier (thieves, elfs, ect.), and they will check out and see who is sneaking around. If you sneak up behind someone you will see the checks being made if you are to remain hidden and undetected. Example of it sort of in real life is we had a guy in our engineer (Pioneers for you GB's) unit who could build the best looking and hidden fighting position (fox hole), and he could stay in there and since he wasn't moving he was well hidden. Take him out at night and trying to move and stay hidden and not make noise was hard for him to do. We had another guy who hated to try and stay in one spot, but could easily sneak off with out anyone hearing him, and most would not hear him coming back up on you, sure if you were looking at him you might have seen him, but he would just sort of pop back up when needed.
Theoretically though we wanted a good mix of being able to hide, and being able to sneak up and stay there till ready to strike (maybe looking at how an SAS team of yours operates might shed some light on sneak and peek operations

).

Another thing that is in but not showing up is the armour affecting abilities. Take your new thief and put some armour on him like studded, and see how much harder it is to hide and move, now do it with normal leather, then naked. It gets eaiser when your naked. But, if you look at your thief scores you will notice that the armour affecting isn't displayed. This is a sore point as you have to de-equip armour sometimes to get a better chance at a lock-pick sometims, that or quaf a thief potion.

Climb walls was not implemented, and neither is the scroll or language ability (at least my fighter/thief can't read scrolls), not sure why the scroll and language ability didn't go in, as it is a nice thing to have when your a master thief (10+) and can use a scroll (could use all the scrolls if i rember right), but you had a chance to screw it up and could hurt yourself.

Detect noise goes in with our detect traps, as when your detecting traps you will automatically find hidden doors, and I am assuming you can find some hidden characters, only problem is the ones that hide are usually in a fight, and I don't have the patience to wait around for me to detect him (I want to kill, kill, kill

oops...

Sheesh, this is freaking way to long, but I hope that helps, it is hard to explain the thief state of mind

, let alone how we work and operate, and on a side note, alot of thieves disapprove about learning about it till you decide to take a walk on the wild side and become one (especially teaching thieves can't to non-thiefs and explaining how we do set up's for backstabs, burgleries, and pick's).

hope it helps

------------------
Drink and be merry

Jimbo

"Renegade, Rebel, and Rogue"

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03-19-2001, 06:41 PM	#1
Charlie Lord Ao Join Date: March 3, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 30 Posts: 2,021	Some are ok and I understand both the attribute and the need to increase your proficiency in some of them. Others on the other hand are mind boggling and I can see neither the use or point of their implementation. In the skills to which you can add points to on level up you will see - Move Silently. Err why? If you can move silently and creep up on someone from behind then surely you should also be able to backstab them without the need for shadows. If I was never to put a point into any other skill bar move silently how will this help my thief? Is it possible that even though my thief has 200% (for example) in hide in shadows that he can be heard approaching...I think not. Checking in the manual for answers only served to increase my confusion. Page 124 of the English manual lists all the thieving base scores as follows - Pick Pockets - 15% Open Locks - 10% Find/Remove traps - 5% Move Silently - 10% Hide in Shadows - 5% Detect Noise - 15% Climb Walls - 60% Read Languages - 0% Well I'm baffled by some of them and their % figures. Even though I can't see or figure out the points behind their inclusion my logical head says there must be a reason. Going on the above base scores I must assume that my thief (providing he's sober and rested) has a 10% chance to silently climb a wall to sit upon in order to read a book or scroll that he's stolen. He has a 40% chance of falling off of the wall, and should he make it to the top of the wall he has absolutely no chance to read the stolen tome anyway. If he does make it safely to the top he then has a 15% chance of hearing any other thieves climbing up the opposite side of the wall in order to peruse their stolen undecipherable tomes too. Any ideas? Baffled from London. ------------------ One love, peace.

03-19-2001, 07:34 PM	#2
Charean Hathor Join Date: March 6, 2001 Location: Waxahachie, TX Age: 60 Posts: 2,201	Don't fall off the wall or you will break you head! Seriously, I haven't seen the need for a few of those statistics... except in PnP games... in computer land, they simply cannot account for all of that at once (fer heaven's sake, it slows when you have several spells cast at once!) ------------------ Defender for the Light - Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches? Wandering Joke of the Laughing Hyenas Laughter can be a Mighty Weapon - when wielded with pizazz and accuracy! What Ho!!

03-19-2001, 09:12 PM	#4
Jimbo The Magister Join Date: March 10, 2001 Location: Brazil, IN USA Age: 55 Posts: 126	One affects the other is why. If you hide, and are not moving it is very easy to be hidden, now try and move and remain that quite and hidden. That is why there are two checks, are you hidden, and how well did you move. A failure in either would mean that the person heard you coming and could ready themselves for your attack. That list is from the AD&D manual if I rember correctly. Pick Pockets - 15% how you steal something from some one Open Locks - 10% picking the lock Find/Remove traps - 5% disarming the trap (hey we get to be sappers/enginers) Move Silently - 10% how well you move and stay undetected Hide in Shadows - 5% how well you hid Detect Noise - 15% this was for detecting other hidden npc Climb Walls - 60% climbing up stuff Read Languages - 0% a thief eventually at level 10 could gain the ability to read magic scrolls and to cast from scroll this affected how they could do that, and if they could figure out codes and languages of new people/races They kinda had the thief doing all the spy/rogue/assasin/stealth/scout thing. Hope that helps, and yes it probably does cause some lag. ------------------ Drink and be merry Jimbo "Renegade, Rebel, and Rogue"

03-19-2001, 11:34 PM	#5
Charlie Lord Ao Join Date: March 3, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 30 Posts: 2,021	Yeah thanks Jimbo, but are detect noise, move silently, climb walls and read the unreadable incorporated in the game? If not then why put them in the manual? Why are detect noise and read languages not in the options that you can apply stat's to when move silently is? Why is move silently incorporated when it appears to serve no purpose? If you are hidden in shadows but are noisy this should reveal your location and prompt an attack by your would be target....it doesn't. You can have 0% in move silently yet still walk up and stand behind a target all day long without risk of detection unless you leave the shadows. Detect illusion incidentally isn't listed in the manual as a thief attribute per-se, yet you can still assign points to it. This one is more straightforward mind you. If my thief has the ability to hear noise he should let me know about it. If he can climb a wall I'd like to watch it. If he's noisy I'd like to hear it and if he can't read I'd like to laugh about it. Still baffled from London. ------------------ One love, peace.

03-19-2001, 11:36 PM	#6
250 Horus - Egyptian Sky God Join Date: March 4, 2001 Location: either CA or MO Age: 42 Posts: 2,674	I think, fi your "move silently" is not high enough, enemies can detect foot step noise. and enemy mage will began casting detecting spells such as true seen...

03-19-2001, 11:42 PM	#7
Charlie Lord Ao Join Date: March 3, 2001 Location: London, England Age: 30 Posts: 2,021	Aah good call 250. Is that definitely correct or is it summisation? Sounds good to me anyway (pardon the pun.) Only 3 more to go ------------------ One love, peace. [This message has been edited by Charlie (edited 03-19-2001).]

03-20-2001, 05:10 AM	#8
Altranan Dungeon Master Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: UK Posts: 85	I don't know if this helps but...my thief can hide in shadows quite happily, but if I try to get her to do a bit of slinking around enemies she will come out of shadows and be set upon. I surmised that this was either to do with her not having high enough "move silently" percentages or the foe (now dead, in a much more traditional manner) having too high "detect noise" scores. So, like most things in this world it was probably a bit of each. Doubt this helps, I just wanted to chip in. The Shadwell Assasin

03-20-2001, 08:07 AM	#9
Lord Shield Guest Posts: n/a	A few critters can spot hidden characters, but you need Move Silently to move while hidden

03-21-2001, 10:32 AM	#10
Jimbo The Magister Join Date: March 10, 2001 Location: Brazil, IN USA Age: 55 Posts: 126	Okay, now to try and help clear up your questions when I'm awake and can think clearer , ahh... much better. Okay ---------------- Yeah thanks Jimbo, but are detect noise, move silently, climb walls and read the unreadable incorporated in the game? If not then why put them in the manual? Why are detect noise and read languages not in the options that you can apply stat's to when move silently is? Why is move silently incorporated when it appears to serve no purpose? If you are hidden in shadows but are noisy this should reveal your location and prompt an attack by your would be target....it doesn't. You can have 0% in move silently yet still walk up and stand behind a target all day long without risk of detection unless you leave the shadows. Detect illusion incidentally isn't listed in the manual as a thief attribute per-se, yet you can still assign points to it. This one is more straightforward mind you. If my thief has the ability to hear noise he should let me know about it. If he can climb a wall I'd like to watch it. If he's noisy I'd like to hear it and if he can't read I'd like to laugh about it. --------------------------------------------- The manual is a small reprint of the players handbook, I'm thinking its the 2nd edition players hand book and not shure which printing. Detect Illusion isn't mentioned in part of the book, but i think there is part of it at the begining. The begining part of the manual covers the little bit that is diffrent than from the PnP AD&D. Now as to what shows as being in and what not. Go hide infront of Rivald in the Adventure mart, he will cast true sight. Also, you can have problems trying to hide around people (more people have seen you), and depending upon how lighted the area is around you (does it provide natural cover and concealment). As you are walking and hidden and moving silently, you will get checks every so often on whether or not you were hidden and stealthing. The better you skill the better you stay out of sight and out of mind. It also checks against the other npcs. Some npcs (elfs and others) are better at seeing things hidden, for example you can detect a trap with out a thief if you sit there long enough. I think this is in as my archer detected a trap with out me bringing up my thief. It is hard in the game to walk up and hide in plain sight of people, and some of them will cast a true seeing or start detecting for you. The idea is that you use a thief to catch a thief or to foil a thief. Its like the best way to kill a tank is with a tank, a jet with a jet, a grunt with a grunt, a sub with a sub, etc... So, if you can hide, but you can't be stealth moving, you will be heard by the other characters, more likely by the ones who can detect hidden things easier (thieves, elfs, ect.), and they will check out and see who is sneaking around. If you sneak up behind someone you will see the checks being made if you are to remain hidden and undetected. Example of it sort of in real life is we had a guy in our engineer (Pioneers for you GB's) unit who could build the best looking and hidden fighting position (fox hole), and he could stay in there and since he wasn't moving he was well hidden. Take him out at night and trying to move and stay hidden and not make noise was hard for him to do. We had another guy who hated to try and stay in one spot, but could easily sneak off with out anyone hearing him, and most would not hear him coming back up on you, sure if you were looking at him you might have seen him, but he would just sort of pop back up when needed. Theoretically though we wanted a good mix of being able to hide, and being able to sneak up and stay there till ready to strike (maybe looking at how an SAS team of yours operates might shed some light on sneak and peek operations ). Another thing that is in but not showing up is the armour affecting abilities. Take your new thief and put some armour on him like studded, and see how much harder it is to hide and move, now do it with normal leather, then naked. It gets eaiser when your naked. But, if you look at your thief scores you will notice that the armour affecting isn't displayed. This is a sore point as you have to de-equip armour sometimes to get a better chance at a lock-pick sometims, that or quaf a thief potion. Climb walls was not implemented, and neither is the scroll or language ability (at least my fighter/thief can't read scrolls), not sure why the scroll and language ability didn't go in, as it is a nice thing to have when your a master thief (10+) and can use a scroll (could use all the scrolls if i rember right), but you had a chance to screw it up and could hurt yourself. Detect noise goes in with our detect traps, as when your detecting traps you will automatically find hidden doors, and I am assuming you can find some hidden characters, only problem is the ones that hide are usually in a fight, and I don't have the patience to wait around for me to detect him (I want to kill, kill, kill oops... Sheesh, this is freaking way to long, but I hope that helps, it is hard to explain the thief state of mind , let alone how we work and operate, and on a side note, alot of thieves disapprove about learning about it till you decide to take a walk on the wild side and become one (especially teaching thieves can't to non-thiefs and explaining how we do set up's for backstabs, burgleries, and pick's). hope it helps ------------------ Drink and be merry Jimbo "Renegade, Rebel, and Rogue"

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