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Old 04-02-2001, 10:08 AM   #71
Sir_Tainly
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
It's like me walking up to the Thames and saying. Hmm nice river, think I'll call it the Bojobrindallamup creek. Then going back to Oz and writing about the Bojo creek not even bothering to find out what Londoners/Westmisterites call it.
Thats exactly what the Roman's did, the river was named by them!
"Tamesis"



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Old 04-02-2001, 10:12 AM   #72
Moiraine
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir_Tainly:
Thats exactly what the Roman's did, the river was named by them!
"Tamesis"
Ha ! :handshake:



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Old 04-02-2001, 10:14 AM   #73
Sir_Tainly
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Originally posted by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon:

Epona, ma'am, Yorick, Sir Tainly,


please forgive me, but I beg to differ: that countries/cities have their own names in different languages is an integral part of the respective language/culture and also very telling about the historic relationship and ties between the two countries and cultures (the "naming" one and the one being "named"). So, to eradicate these names would strike me as exceptionally oblivious of history, as "unhistoric" in the worst possible meaning. Please also note: having own names for "geographic entities" is not a sign of ignorance between countries as a result of being far away from each other, but quite to the contrary, is most frequent among neighbouring countries and cultures.


By all of the above, I am, of course, not advocating the kind of ignorance displayed by Yorick's Australian friends in Singapore, but for me the consequence is one that requires a little work: every educated individual should strive to know the names in at least 3 languages - in English, the lingua franca of this age, in the respective country's language(s) and in his/her native language (Milan, Milano, Mailand; Barcelona, Barcelona, Barcelona ... hey, wait a minute ... ).


To give you another, rather solemn, example: As you might know, at the end of WW II, Germany had to cede vast territories in its east to Poland (and a small part to the USSR), which in turn had to cede large territories to the USSR. The German population, a total of 13 Mio. fom all of Eastern Europe, were expelled.
Because this territories had been German for 800 years, it took about 30 years until all major segments of the German society had fully accepted the irrevocability of this loss. This process was obviously helped by the enormity of Germany's guilt in WW II and the fact that the long postwar economic boom facilitated the integration of the expellees into the West German society.
At around the time, the mid seventies, it become fashionable in the media to call the cities in those former German territories by their Polish names - like Wroclaw instead of Breslau for the capital of Silesia - and anything else was considered "revanchist". Now, after the Berlin Wall had come down, the cultural interchange between Germany and Poland reintensified. Many Poles of all ages speak German remarkably well. None of them ever hesitated one second to call Breslau Breslau or considered to call it Wroclaw when speaking German.


( Yorick, my friend, my true reason for opposing you on this matter, is of course that I fear that your attempts to name things in their original languages
might result in more cases of "sausages" ... )

I was avocating the use of "localised" names, so we aren't disagreeing

Your point is particularly valid with Germany/Poland, given that Poland as a nation has particularly unstable borders, throughout history Poland has been reshaped many times, the only part that has been in Poland for the majority of its existance is the area around Warsaw.

Another good point occurs when two or more groups of people inhabit a city, using the above examples, what would Danzig by on a 1930s map? Danzig/Gdansk/League of Nations Freecity? The city contained both Poles and Germans, both local, both with a different name for the city. Thus Ramon (x3) I agree with you.


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Old 04-02-2001, 10:18 AM   #74
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Bonjour Moiraine,

I'm too lazy to read back through the posts, which side were you advocating, localisation of each country naming places as they find them?

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Old 04-02-2001, 10:38 AM   #75
Moiraine
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir_Tainly:
Bonjour Moiraine,

I'm too lazy to read back through the posts, which side were you advocating, localisation of each country naming places as they find them?
I was not really advocating any side, I merely pointed out that names change over time according to how people refer to them.

I agree wholeheartedly with Yorick when he says that it is a matter of politeness to refer to local places with the name the natives give them.

However, I made the remark that the 'native' name may have been given by foreigners long ago (like "Gratianopolis" -> "Grenoble" - funny, since the Romains gave this name to make the name of their Emperor remembered, but today almost nobody correlates "Grenoble" with Gratian !).

There is also the fact that a native name can be unpronounceable by foreign tongues, so in some cases a 'foreign' name may be better in the sake of communication. Or maybe the translation of the meaning of the native name ?

A balance must be found between respect of local cultures and communication needs.

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[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 04-02-2001).]
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Old 04-02-2001, 10:57 AM   #76
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Originally posted by Moiraine:
I was not really advocating any side, I merely pointed out that names change over time according to how people refer to them.

I agree wholeheatedly with Yorick when he says that it is a matter of politeness to refer to local places with the name the natives give them.

However, I made the remark that the 'native' name may have been given by foreigners long ago (like "Gratianopolis" -> "Grenoble" - funny, since the Romains gave this name to make the name of their Emperor remembered, but today almost nobody correlates "Grenoble" with Gratian !).

There is also the fact that a native name can be unpronounceable by foreign tongues, so in some cases a 'foreign' name may be better in the sake of communication. Or maybe the translation of the meaning of the native name ?

A balance must be found between respect of local cultures and communication needs.


Well said Moiraine, I guess going on the pronounciation its easy to see why soldiers in world war one called Ypres "wipers". Ypres isn't so easy in English

Still the problem remains in English where even we pronounce our own place names differently to there spelling e.g. Worcester


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Old 04-02-2001, 11:04 AM   #77
Moiraine
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir_Tainly:

Well said Moiraine, I guess going on the pronounciation its easy to see why soldiers in world war one called Ypres "wipers". Ypres isn't so easy in English

Still the problem remains in English where even we pronounce our own place names differently to there spelling e.g. Worcester
Usually, after a long while of mispronouncing, the written name changes to adjust to the spoken name. (Like "Ottawa" or "Grenoble" ).
I am willing to bet that "Worcester" will be spelled differently in a century or two - alas, I won't be there to collect the prize ...



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Old 04-02-2001, 11:08 AM   #78
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Originally posted by Moiraine:
Usually, after a long while of mispronouncing, the written name changes to adjust to the spoken name. (Like "Ottawa" or "Grenoble" ).
I am willing to bet that "Worcester" will be spelled differently in a century or two - alas, I won't be there to collect the prize ...
I disagree I think people like the fact it is spelt oddly, catches out tourists who wish to go to "War-cester", to where?

(I had this done to me in France when I mispronounced a place name and I didn't even bat an eyelid when someone ask if this was the train to Gatwitch airport )

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Old 04-02-2001, 11:20 AM   #79
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Old 04-02-2001, 11:25 AM   #80
Ramon de Ramon y Ramon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir_Tainly:
I disagree I think people like the fact it is spelt oddly, catches out tourists who wish to go to "War-cester", to where?


(I had this done to me in France when I mispronounced a place name and I didn't even bat an eyelid when someone ask if this was the train to Gatwitch airport )

And I had always thought that Worcester was nothing but a sauce !

Ramon from Perfume City


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