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Old 04-01-2001, 10:03 AM   #51
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
But words in any language are not meant to remain static - all words evolve with time and with interaction between both native and foreign people.

If I wanted to stick to the past, I should not say I am French - my father's family comes from the city of Nice, and my mother's family from the northeastern area of France called Lorraine, and these two places have been rattached to France only 150 years ago, having been mostly independant through history by their location near to frontiers.

The name "Lorraine" comes from the name of Charlemagne's son Lothaire. "Nice" comes from the ancient Greek name "Nicae".

"Grenoble" is a Roman name, it comes from "Gratianopolis" - the ancient name of it was "Cularo", back when this place was only a village. Would you recognize where I live if I said I lived in "Cularo" ?

The origin isn't important it's what the majority of people who live in an area, or call the language they speak, or name themselves, refer to presently (and this will change as in the case of the aforementioned Mumbai/Channai cases.)

It would be an insult to call you Moron, your language Frankie and your town Grimebill simply because I can't be bothered learning or pronouncing the names you use. It's not a matter of sticking to the past or not. In the case of Germany/Allemagne/Allemani, it is sticking to the past that is the problem!


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Old 04-01-2001, 10:05 AM   #52
Yorick
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As Europe unifies I think you'll find it becomes more important for proper communication and administration to refer to a language, place or people with one name rather than all the different translations.

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Old 04-01-2001, 10:08 AM   #53
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As Europe unifies I think you'll find it becomes more important for proper communication and administration to refer to a language, place or people with one name rather than all the different translations.

So whose language do you pick when deciding the single name? You would hope what the speakers call it. Whose name for a town? Hopefully what the locals refer to it as.

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Old 04-01-2001, 10:11 AM   #54
Yorick
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I like talking to myself

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Old 04-01-2001, 10:13 AM   #55
Moiraine
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
The origin isn't important it's what the majority of people who live in an area, or call the language they speak, or name themselves, refer to presently (and this will change as in the case of the aforementioned Mumbai/Channai cases.)

It would be an insult to call you Moron, your language Frankie and your town Grimebill simply because I can't be bothered learning or pronouncing the names you use. It's not a matter of sticking to the past or not. In the case of Germany/Allemagne/Allemani, it is sticking to the past that is the problem!
Yorick, I didn't say I didn't agree with you, I merely pointed out that names evolve with time and with people speaking them. They always have. Current names for places in the world are already deformations from original names that we don't even remember ! If a sufficient number of people started to name my town Grimebill, then it would become Grimebill after a while !

Moorein, the Frankie girl



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Old 04-01-2001, 10:15 AM   #56
Moiraine
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Sorry it takes so much time for me to answer one post ...

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Old 04-01-2001, 10:18 AM   #57
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
Sorry it takes so much time for me to answer one post ...

No worries


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Old 04-01-2001, 10:47 AM   #58
Ramon de Ramon y Ramon
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Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: Cologne, North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
Yorick, you've hit on one of my pet hates there! I hate that place names get 'anglicized' or even completely changed in English to something different than the name the locals call a place. I realise that place names have and will probably continue to change as people move, languages change, cultures change etc. these things are always dynamic. But I think it is better to use as a standard name whatever the 'locals' use - Deutschland is not a difficult word in any language. Place names are of course written in a variety of characters and alphabets, but where they are translated into a different alphabet this should be done phonetically so the sound of the word stays true, not just given a different name.

Oh, back on topic I'm from England, born in Surrey (South East of the country) live in London, but an internationalist and citizen of the world.



Epona, ma'am, Yorick, Sir Tainly,


please forgive me, but I beg to differ: that countries/cities have their own names in different languages is an integral part of the respective language/culture and also very telling about the historic relationship and ties between the two countries and cultures (the "naming" one and the one being "named"). So, to eradicate these names would strike me as exceptionally oblivious of history, as "unhistoric" in the worst possible meaning. Please also note: having own names for "geographic entities" is not a sign of ignorance between countries as a result of being far away from each other, but quite to the contrary, is most frequent among neighbouring countries and cultures.


By all of the above, I am, of course, not advocating the kind of ignorance displayed by Yorick's Australian friends in Singapore, but for me the consequence is one that requires a little work: every educated individual should strive to know the names in at least 3 languages - in English, the lingua franca of this age, in the respective country's language(s) and in his/her native language (Milan, Milano, Mailand; Barcelona, Barcelona, Barcelona ... hey, wait a minute ... ).


To give you another, rather solemn, example: As you might know, at the end of WW II, Germany had to cede vast territories in its east to Poland (and a small part to the USSR), which in turn had to cede large territories to the USSR. The German population, a total of 13 Mio. fom all of Eastern Europe, were expelled.
Because this territories had been German for 800 years, it took about 30 years until all major segments of the German society had fully accepted the irrevocability of this loss. This process was obviously helped by the enormity of Germany's guilt in WW II and the fact that the long postwar economic boom facilitated the integration of the expellees into the West German society.
At around the time, the mid seventies, it become fashionable in the media to call the cities in those former German territories by their Polish names - like Wroclaw instead of Breslau for the capital of Silesia - and anything else was considered "revanchist". Now, after the Berlin Wall had come down, the cultural interchange between Germany and Poland reintensified. Many Poles of all ages speak German remarkably well. None of them ever hesitated one second to call Breslau Breslau or considered to call it Wroclaw when speaking German.


( Yorick, my friend, my true reason for opposing you on this matter, is of course that I fear that your attempts to name things in their original languages
might result in more cases of "sausages" ... )


------------------
So long !

R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts

[This message has been edited by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Old 04-01-2001, 10:55 AM   #59
Ramon de Ramon y Ramon
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Age: 45
Posts: 1,517
Quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:
But words in any language are not meant to remain static - all words evolve with time and with interaction between both native and foreign people.


If I wanted to stick to the past, I should not say I am French - my father's family comes from the city of Nice, and my mother's family from the northeastern area of France called Lorraine, and these two places have been rattached to France only 150 years ago, having been mostly independant through history by their location near to frontiers.


The name "Lorraine" comes from the name of Charlemagne's son Lothaire. "Nice" comes from the ancient Greek name "Nicae".


"Grenoble" is a Roman name, it comes from "Gratianopolis" - the ancient name of it was "Cularo", back when this place was only a village. Would you recognize where I live if I said I lived in "Cularo" ?

Here, here !

I am, too, bothered by the handicap of being a very slow poster.


------------------
So long !


R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts
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Old 04-01-2001, 11:06 AM   #60
Strahd Von Zarovich
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Join Date: March 2, 2001
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 266
Town and cities change names for various reasons, Ottawa Used to be Bytown (named after the General James By If I recall)and now all the cities around Ottawa (Vanier, Glouster, Orléan, Kanata, nepean) will be called Ottawa. The city next to Ottawa in the next province is called Hull, Hull used to be called Wrightville (very long time ago) by it's founder now they are also joining (Hull, Gatineau, Gatineau-pointe, Aylmer, Cantley) into a new city, People must vote for the new name the lead is Outaouais (naming the city after the quebec region it's in).

But Ottawa is the way the english spelled Outaouais(french) with the French mispelled from a native word. So moraine is right alot of times it's how the people say the word that determines the name.
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