TOS discussion.

[Yorick]

Hey where's Timber?

Check this out in the TOS -

No Piracy: DO NOT post links to 'warez sites'. Do not discuss pirating games, BRAGGING about PIRATING OR ANYTHING ELSE. This will get your account suspended or banned. The only possible thing you CAN discuss is the so-called 'cracks' for no CD operation. SOME Games don't work on some peoples CD-ROM's. This is because of a special copy protection called 'Safe Disc'. But that is it. Anything else is considered pirating.

The spirit of the rule is quite clear.

How about this?

Be Prudent: Before you post a message or question, check and see if this has been discussed before. This forum has a VERY good search engine, and nearly ALL questions have been archived for every game we have forums for.

or this?

No posting of material that antagonizes, harasses or creates hostility toward another user or group

Would you guys say that "the thread" broke the ToS or not? At least in spirit if not to the letter.

Larry, I did try 'report post' BTW and got an error message.

Maybe I HAVE gone off the deep end....

[Larry_OHF]

Larry, I did try 'report post' BTW and got an error message.

Thanks for trying.

I will make sure Ziroc looks into fixing that, if there is anything to fix.

At this time, I am not accusing anyone of anything. I hope everyone can at least take a breather...'cause fresh air helps clear a cloudy mind.

[johnny]

So does a cold beer. Cheers guys.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Yorick - I don't have any idea what this is about, because I've not browsed the C.E. in several days (which has been kinda refreshing, actually - but that's a different story ).

The only comment I will make regarding this thread is this - "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

[Yorick]

Perhaps Cerek, it would be prudent to get an idea what it is about before contributing.

Regarding music theft, no I do not steal music. I have never owned or used Napster, Kazaa or any other filesharing software.

Seeing as my livelihood has been shafted by music thiefs actions, I think I have every right to be fed up and foaming at the mouth when yet another ignorant criticism is levelled at my advocates doing their contractually bound duty, and working to protect mine and my peers copyright.

As far as suspensions, I know of another Ironworks member who was suspended for unintentionally "stirring the pot", while remaining cool headed in the face of a barrage of personal insults.

Why should we not see the same penalty applied here?

Where were your protestations about stone throwing when that poster was suspended? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Yorick, I first note that, as previously stated, I sympathize with your professional position on the issue which seems to be being discussed here now.

However, the flamebait accusations were too much. I don't think Whackmeister meant to flame, but rather that he simply sees it different than you. If you check out www.eff.org you may note some interesting arguments and articles there. He simply sees it differently.

Remember the TOS prohibition about "bragging" about file sharing/swapping/stealing is in response to the LAW, which forbids it. The law, nor the TOS, however, do not forbid discussin the VALIDITY of the law. I think the law is valid, but I certainly am not going to try to prevent someone from arguing the law should be changed.

So, what I'm saying is that I don't think Whacky meant to breach the TOS rule, or that he did (in these particular posts). I certainly don't think he sought to antagonize you.

I realize you see this differently, but once again we find ourselves in a situation where everyone disagrees with you (about Whacky's culpability), yet you let your emotions run amuck and dictate your posts, which continue to assert the need for a suspension or a ban. Once again, I state something you have heard before: if everyone disagrees with you, maybe you should consider the possiblity you are WRONG.

Back to the TOS, I note your most recent post in the locked thread uses the F-word flagrantly -- twice. Careful you yourself don't end up with another two-week sabbatical from Ironworks. I mean that. You should take heed. It won't be ME administering the choc-down, but I'm giving you friendly advice: I see it coming.

[ 01-29-2004, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Yorick]

I'm just wondering if what's good for the goose is good for the gander Timber. If you read the second last post in the locked thread, it explains what underpins the calls for suspension.

I'm making a song and dance not so much to get him suspended, but to highlight how much his flagrant theft justifications and thread deleting upset me, and that I had to exert a lot of self control to not flame him. His sig rubs our noses in it and actually slanders friends of mine still working for record companies. Record companies are actually a collection of humans, not some faceless machine. He's compared them to those that attacked my city. I don't appreciate it being shoved in my face like that.

How else do I express how annoyed I am? How insulting and infuriating theft-justifications are? If he was proclaiming anti-abortion slogans in his sig he'd be hounded down woudn't he? Imagine the hue and cry if his sig compared mothers who abort to Al-Qaeda.

I happen to be the only professional artist who's speaking here at the moment. Leonis is another, and he's voiced fury at the whole thing before now.

Message to music thiefs - don't expect professional artists to have different reactions to mine. A HUGE amount of my peers that I know personally are REALLY PISSED OFF.

The irony is of course, I do give music away on my site. For free. The difference is, that is my choice. Freely given. However, if someone was filesharing songs I had not chosen to give away, I would be horrified and insulted.

[ 01-29-2004, 03:32 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Yorick: Perhaps Cerek, it would be prudent to get an idea what it is about before contributing. Regarding music theft, no I do not steal music. I have never owned or used Napster, Kazaa or any other filesharing software. Seeing as my livelihood has been shafted by music thiefs actions, I think I have every right to be fed up and foaming at the mouth when yet another ignorant criticism is levelled at my advocates doing their contractually bound duty, and working to protect mine and my peers copyright. As far as suspensions, I know of another Ironworks member who was suspended for unintentionally "stirring the pot", while remaining cool headed in the face of a barrage of personal insults. Why should we not see the same penalty applied here? Where were your protestations about stone throwing when that poster was suspended? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

First of all,Yorick, I didn't really need to "get an idea what the issue of this thread was about" before contributing. This certainly isn't the first time you've made a public outcry for the Mods to suspend or ban somebody because you personally didn't like what they said in a post or their sig. I also didn't know what "thread" you were referring to in your opening post - but a quick perusal of the thread titles made it pretty easy to figure out which one had put a burr under your saddle this time.

I understand that you don't like filesharing. I happen to disagree with you and the recording industry regarding this, but that isn't the point here.

I read over the other thread in question and I agree with the majority. While it may have been bad form or poor etiquette of Whackmeister to delete the original thread, I think it was an honost mistake on his part. He doesn't venture to C.E. very often, and when things apparantly became heated, I guess he felt it was best to simply remove the offending material altogether. I believe his mistake has been sufficiently pointed out to him by you and the others in the 2nd thread.

But in regards to this thread, my first post the edited version of my original thoughts and comments - although I knew you wouldn't accept the advice given. Since the subtle approach didn't work, allow me to be more to the point (even though it won't be any more effective).

To be perfectly blunt, Yorick, you are the LAST member on this forum that should be making a PUBLIC OUTCRY for the Mods to suspend or ban a member for flamebaiting. You have a proven track record of becoming increasingly insulting in a thread when people refuse to accept your point of view. In the past months you have been extremely insulting to certain members on different topics. From an outright refusal on your part to allow smoking bar patron the right to "light up" inside even a small fraction of bars in NY to demanding that Mormons STOP calling themselves Christians because their theology didn't fit your specific definition of the term to the incident I assume you are referring to where you and another member continued to hurl personal insults at each other despite repeated warnings from at least two different Moderators.

And - as I said before - this isn't the first time you've made a separate thread for the sole purpose of demanding the Mods suspend or ban somebody that said something that upset you - although other people weren't nearly as offended by the same remarks.

Since you like to quote the TOS, how about this one.....

Be Nice: No posting of material that antagonizes, harasses or creates hostility toward another user or group of. If you are angry with someone in the forum, take it up with him/her through private channels like e-mail or ICQ.

If you don't like what Whackmeister said in his sig, you should have taken it up with him privately. Instead, you called for him to be suspended or banned at least 2-3 times in the thread itself. When the Moderators didn't comply with your wishes (which should be a clue that they don't agree there is sufficient cause for a suspension), you then create a PUBLIC and SEPARATE thread demanding they take action. In effect, you are "calling the Mods out" - all because you alone are personally offended by certain remarks made by a member.

To be quite honost, Yorick, this type of behavior makes you look like a big cry baby. You post very emotional and inflammatory comments agaisnt those you disagree with. You let your emotions get the best of you and become personally insulting in your remarks towards members. THEN, when you also demand the Mods take action against the person you feel offended by. When they don't, you run and "tattle" by making a public thread in an effort to force them into action.

As I tried to imply through subtelty in my first post, you have been just as guilty of flamebaiting as any other member here, and the Mods have been very lenient in the past...giving you repeated warnings before finally being forced to take action after you continually ignored those warnings.

The best advice I can give you is to let this issue go and move on.

[Barry the Sprout]

Once again Yorick your justification of the call for suspending this guy seems founded in tehf act that he;s saying things that really annoy you. Newsflash - people quite often say things that really annoy a hell of a lot of us on this board. Just the other day I caught a post by Khazadman saying without any kind of sarcasm that the world would be a better place if all the communists were shot. Thats me he's talking about. However thats his opinion. I don't have to like it but I do have to accept he thinks that way.

Simply put Yorick you do not have the right to ban people for disagreeing with you, whether or not its a "personal" issue. Everythings personal to someone, and if we thought that way we might as well get rid of the whole forum.

[Larry_OHF]

Yorick, your signature pic is a violation of TOS rules.

It needs to be downsized. This is not the first time I have asked you about this, and I am not the only one that has, either.

You have ignored other, more private means of communicating this to you, so I have to make it public.

I will have to lock this thread now...It is worth nothing except a place to throw rotten vegetables at one another.

I advise that no more tangent threads spring up. Those would also become trashy places too quickly to help stop somebody from getting seriously hurt.

[ 01-29-2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]