New to IwD and seeking advice!

[Kaelas]

Well met everybody!

I ordered The IwD Ultimate Collection just a couple of days ago and have been planning my first party ever since.
I'm an avid NwN gamer and have played through BG/TotSC and BG2/ToB more times than I'd like to admit... so I'm not a total newbie to D&D.

Still, I'd like some opinions on my first IwD party from the pros!

First the characters I'm pretty sure I'll definitely be using:

- Human Fighter(13)/Druid (longswords, sling)
Lvl 13 is one of the sweet spots to DC as I know from my Kensai/Mage from
BG2. I'm unsure, however, how much time of the game I'll be spending as druid
while trying to regain my fighter levels. Could anyone comment on that?

- Human Paladin (longswords, bows)

- Elf Cleric (maces, sling)

- Half-Elf Bard (For the War Chants and the Bard-only items, basically. The
spells don't hurt either.)


Now those I'm not so sure about:

- Gnome Thief/Illusionist (dagger, crossbow or short bows)
Now, I'm unsure if I really need all those thief-levels (in BG2 a lvl 7 thief
was absolutely capable of unlocking/disarming everything) and if my little
Jansen actually got enough spells (and a high enough spell level) to be
an asset throughout the whole game. Also the lack of necromantic spells bugs
me a little since I was always an avid user of the spells
'Finger of Death'(a true Dragonkiller) and 'Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting'
(for crowd control). Can anyone comment on the usefulness of those spells in
the game and if it would be worth taking a generalist mage?

- Dwarf Fighter (Axes, Hammers)
I figured I still needed some melee power.

Alternatively I'm toying with the idea of either using...

a) an Elf Generalist Mage and a Dwarf Fighter/Thief

or

b) a Human Thief(x)/Mage and a pure Dwarven Fighter

Phew, that's it for now.

Your feedback and input would be much appreciated! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Marty4]

Welcome to Ironworks!

Looks like a good party to me, though any second now a pro will storm in here and tell you the amazingly huge list of things you are doing wrong

I'm fairly certain that in IWD druids dont get swords (they do in BG2) so you may stack pps in maces or hammers instead.

If you have a bard, penny pinch through the entire beginning of the game. there is a godly bard item available for sale, and getting it by chapter 2 is a huge plus.

[ 11-18-2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Marty4 ]

[Aerich]

Welcome, Kaelas [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

I suppose I might count as one of the pros, although I'm retaining my amateur status by not taking any money.

First four characters - no problem. They look just fine. If you want to maximize your cleric's fighting ability for very little cost, you could make the cleric into a human fighter (or ranger) for a level or three in the start to get the benefit of weapon specialization (or an extra attack). But a straight cleric will be fine.

Next two - as in BG, a lvl 7 thief pretty much has the world at his/her mercy, at least in terms of locks and traps. Don't spend any points on pick pockets, as the bard can cover all of it. You could very well get away with a thief[7]/mage, and that would give you a spell bomber as well. Adding a dwarven fighter (take Axe, there are more good axes than you could possibly use) is a good complement.

So, that would give you a party as follows:
Paladin
pure fighter
enough thief skills to get by
what amounts to a single-classed mage -60 000 XP or so, that can use bows
bard
tank druid
cleric

Looks darn good to me!

For the other questions:
Heart of Winter and the free downloadable expansion Trials of the Luremaster (TotL) will add a lot of gameplay and levels. The basic game, with a 6-character party, will get you around 12-13 levels. HoW and TotL will add another few onto that.

Finger of Death and ADHW are still useful, although maybe not to the same extent as in BG. A generalist mage is good, although you can definitely get away with a specialist mage and a bard.

You will spend about 1/5 (according to NobleNick, our resident dual-class Fighter/Druid specialist) of the game regaining your fighter levels as a straight druid. However, it's not like your druid is going to coast. Druids have amazing summons and excellent offensive elemental spells. Druids are so much fun to play (if you have Heart of Winter installed, with all the added spells they give to druids) that you may even question why you spent so much time as a fighter.

[Calagari]

Welcome to the forums Kaelas! I think the fun part is making a party and seeing how well they do. I think any party you could make up would give you a fun experience.

BTW I just bought the NWN Plat edition. When I finish the IWD series I plan on playing it.

Originally posted by Kaelas: Well met everybody! I ordered The IwD Ultimate Collection just a couple of days ago and have been planning my first party ever since. I'm an avid NwN gamer and have played through BG/TotSC and BG2/ToB more times than I'd like to admit... so I'm not a total newbie to D&D. Still, I'd like some opinions on my first IwD party from the pros! First the characters I'm pretty sure I'll definitely be using: - Human Fighter(13)/Druid (longswords, sling) Lvl 13 is one of the sweet spots to DC as I know from my Kensai/Mage from BG2. I'm unsure, however, how much time of the game I'll be spending as druid while trying to regain my fighter levels. Could anyone comment on that? - Human Paladin (longswords, bows) - Elf Cleric (maces, sling) - Half-Elf Bard (For the War Chants and the Bard-only items, basically. The spells don't hurt either.) Now those I'm not so sure about: - Gnome Thief/Illusionist (dagger, crossbow or short bows) Now, I'm unsure if I really need all those thief-levels (in BG2 a lvl 7 thief was absolutely capable of unlocking/disarming everything) and if my little Jansen actually got enough spells (and a high enough spell level) to be an asset throughout the whole game. Also the lack of necromantic spells bugs me a little since I was always an avid user of the spells 'Finger of Death'(a true Dragonkiller) and 'Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting' (for crowd control). Can anyone comment on the usefulness of those spells in the game and if it would be worth taking a generalist mage? - Dwarf Fighter (Axes, Hammers) I figured I still needed some melee power. Alternatively I'm toying with the idea of either using... a) an Elf Generalist Mage and a Dwarf Fighter/Thief or b) a Human Thief(x)/Mage and a pure Dwarven Fighter Phew, that's it for now. Your feedback and input would be much appreciated! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[NobleNick]

Welcome to the forum, Kaelas. You are one of the most experienced IWD "newbies" I've ever seen!

Aerich said it pretty well; but I've never let that stop me. I'll try to fill in around the edges.

If you have HoW and download TotLM, and especially if you take advantage of quests and bone up on expo every now and then by sleeping or schlepping in monster infested areas; then you will have PLENTY of game time to enjoy your F[13]/D[14+]. (For example, there is one spot in the expanisons where my party racked up the better part of a million XP in less than an hour, by hanging out at a place that spawned monsters on a script. That represents the XP needed to make D[13] or almost F[12]. I could have gotten 2 million in 2 hours, 3 million in 3, etc.; but didn't need the XP.)

Salient XP levels:
0125K - F[8], D[10]
0200K - D[11]
0250K - F[9]
0300K - D[12]
0500K - F[10]
0750K - F[11], D[13]
1000K - F[12]
1250K - F[13]
1500K - F[14], D[14]

So, you can have a F[9]/D[10+] for 375K XP; a F[12]/D[13+] for 1750K; and a F[13]/D[14+] for 2750K. That last Fighter level costs a lot; because the Druid goes through a LONG dry spell between CLVL13 and CLVL14. However, as the owner of a F[10]/D[17+] in TotLM with 1/4 of the entire game left (including 3 boss fights), I heartily second your intent to go F[13] for the extra weapon PP, THAC0 and 1/2 ApR. Also, it would be nice to have a F[13] while adjusting to HoW.

Where do you level? Depends on how you play. If you do IWD/HoW/TotLM as one game with a 6-person party, do all the quests and go as far in IWD as possible before starting HoW, and the same in HoW before TotLM; then I'd guess, roughly:

- DC from F[13] to Druid about 1/4 way into HoW.
- Regain Fighter about 3/4 way into TotLM.
- You will have (ROUGHLY, so as to not spoil...) 7/8 of IWD and 1/4 of HoW as Fighter; 3/4 of HoW and 3/4 of ToTLM as a high-HP Driud; and 1/4 of TotLM, 1/4 of HoW and 1/8 of IWD as F[13]/D[14+]. (Remember, IWD is ROUGHLY twice as long as HoW and TotLM combined.) You fight all 3 bosses (IWD, HoW, and TotLM) as a F[13]/D[14+].

The Druid does get LargeSwords, but is constrained to Scimitars. An excellent build would be 5 PP in LargeSwords and 3 PP in Sling.

Your Pally's pick for melee weapon is EXCELLENT, as you will later find.

Ranged weapons are very effective in most situations. Arm your party to the teeth.

The Illusionist and Necro or the Illusionist and Bard make a GREAT combo. I have a Gnome Thief/Illusionist and Bard. Because of the MC effects on the Illusionist; the Bard levels much faster and is actually a more powerful spellcaster (for spell effects that rely on caster's CLVL), and she can pick up those Necro spells you love. I also have some angst about having my MC Mage unprotected out in front doing Thieves' work when all hell breaks loose. But other than this beef, the Specialist and Bard complement each other very well. The closest thing you've offered is Option A.; but I would definitely recommend Illusionist over General if you have the Bard.

If you DC the Mage as an F[3+]/M and stack all PP in Bow, you get a Mage with lots of HP and very good as a ranged attacker. With the Bard filling in on Mage duty, you could easily take the DC character to F[9]/Illusionist and have a Mage that would scare the non-living daylights out of those pesky monsters that skirt the front line looking for an easy Mage-kill.

Same type of story for Cleric: DCing as F[9]/C and stacking 5 PP in Cleric melee weapon and 2 PP in Sling gives you a high-HP Cleric with decent THAC0, who has 3 ApR in melee (instead of 1 ApR) and is also quite decent with sling.

You will NOT be sorry for any extra Cleric power you bring into HoW and TotLM. You have the Pally, Bard's healing song, DC Druid and (SC/DC/MC) Cleric. That is very good, but not overkill. For healing/buffing, I took a Bard, DC C/F, DC R/C, and DC F/D. I wish I had done the DC Clerics as F/C and C/R, instead of the other way around; BUT I was very, VERY happy to have two Clerics along!

You have enough warriors to make a Bard a good pick for your party.

The Bardic Horn of Valhalla gets my vote as the most valuable piece of equipment in the game (expansions included), if you buy it early.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 11-18-2004, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Kaelas]

Cheers guys, thanks for all the info! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Is it just me or is planning your character(s) a whole lot of fun!? And now I get to do that 6 times over...

Heh, I got myself the NwN Plat. Ed. as well, on a single DVD... no more disc juggling. Even when considering that the original NwN campaign is relatively weak (just my opinion) it's still a good deal with both expansions and all those user made modules out there. Great bang for your buck.

Now, that DC Fighter(9)/Cleric looks interesting, I'm a bit concerned, however, with healing in the early stages of the game. Sure, the Paladin gets his first spell at lvl 6 if I remember correctly, but at least until then I would have to scrape by on potions and the like since I haven't got a healing class right from the start. (I'm quite reluctant to pay for healing in some temple, actually... talk about being a penny pincher )
The question is how fast I could gain those 250k exp for 9 lvls of fighter to start on the cleric lvls!?

Even so, I got to admit that the increased combat proficiency of a DC cleric is VERY tempting. She could actually bash in some heads with that mace of hers.

I could of course multiclass the dwarven fighter into a fighter/cleric to get some more healing power, but I'm not so sure about that. IIRC I'm gonna lose on +2 to hit, +3 to damage and a 1/2 attack per round if I do this. In addition I figure I'll have enough priest spells/powers once the Fighter/Druid really kicks off.

Decisions, decisions.

As for mages/thieves, I think I'll go with the gnomish multi-classed one the first time around and see how she copes in conjunction with the bard.

[NobleNick]

Kaelas,

Yes, planning is a good part of the fun for me.

It will be a relatively easy go without the Cleric in the early game. Your party will sleep a lot to regain HP; but there is no cost nor gameplay disadvantage to this. I agree, money spent on potions or in the temple is money lost. IIRC, the portion of the game where you will really start feeling the need for a Cleric with curative (versus HP healing) and buffing powers is just BEFORE you hit F[9]; but if you save often and carry just a few of the many potions you will find (mummy's tea, etc.) it shouldn't be a big deal. The best defense is a good offense; and the extra Fighter you have should help in quickly dispatching the enemy before they can shaft you. Reload for the few times this tactic doesn't work and you don't want to part with a potion.

HoW and TotLM contain many areas where you will find Clerics essential and the extra Fighter power a blessing, in the same encounter. (Some areas seem to be created with the sole intent of severely spanking Cleric-less parties.) Any pain you might experience without a Cleric in mid-game IWD pales in comparison to the sorrow of having a physically wimpy Cleric in HoW and TotLM. Having a Bard and a Mage to protect is enough liability. You don't want to have to try hiding your Cleric also. A F[9]/C[10] (850K XP) with CON=18 will have 128HP, 3ApR and a THAC0 = 8 in melee. (Compare: A C[11] (900K XP) with CON=18 will have 94 HP, 1ApR, and THAC0 = 15 for melee.)

The 9 Fighter levels means your DC character will lag the SC Cleric by a little under 1 Cleric level. That means that 5/6 of the time the DC will be 1 Cleric level behind, and 1/6 of the time will be the SAME Cleric level as the straight class! Very small price to pay to get all that Fighter power packed in. This deal was so good, I packed TWO DC Clerics into my party. They serve as decent Fighters, excellent Clerics, and good tanks.

My favorite trick with the two-Cleric party is to have both of them learn 4 to 5 Prayers and 4 to 5 Recitations. In tough fights (many of these in HoW), I have one cast Recitation and the other Prayer. These stack with each other and the Bard's War Chant to give the same effect as a 5 point bonus to AC, 3 point bonus to THAC0, 3 point bonus to saving throws, 1 point bonus to damage given (+1) and received (-1), and other goodies for each party member AND for friendly summons; and 3 point penalty to saving throws for the enemy!! Then the Clerics join the F[10]/D and F[9]/T for a Four-Fighter bash-in. Woo Hoo!! I alternate who casts R. or P.; so the party can do this 8 or 10 times between party rests! Killer tactic that has become my mainstay in TotLM.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Kaelas]

Heh, even though I'm a sucker for female elven clerics you got me convinced to create a human dual-classed one. Just looking at the exp values (F[9]/C[10] vs C[11]) kind of makes me wonder why I didn't think of that sooner... Well, I probably DID want an elf in my party.

On a different note: Is there documentation available for advances in proficiency points and THAC0 values for all the classes?
Couldn't find that anywhere...

Now all I need is that game heh. They are sure taking their sweet time...
Well, patience is a virtue.

Thanks for all your help.

[NobleNick]

Kaelas,

Here is an old post that I found helpful:

Originally posted by Jim: Glad to help Nick, Etsap, you're almost there: * - removes -1 penalty to hit and damage ** - Grants +1 to hit, +2 to damage, +0.5 attacks to base. *** - Grants an additional +2 to hit and +1 to damage. Making the current total +3 to hit, +3 damage, +0.5 attacks to base. **** - Grants an additional +1 to damage rolls making current total +3 to hit, +4 to damage, +0.5 attacks to base. ***** - Grants an additional +1 to damage and +1 to attacks per round making current total +3 to hit, +5 to damage rolls, +1.5 attacks to base.

The only thing that Jim said, above, that some might doubt, is the additional ApR for 5 PP: Some (including those who wrote the manual) think it is +0.5 ApR for the 5th PP, to yield 1.0 extra ApR. However, I have verified, in game, that Jim's ApR numbers are correct (+1 for 5th PP to yield a total of +1.5 ApR added to base). So, for example, a Fighter[13] gets 1 ApR for being able to breathe + 0.5 ApR at F[7] + 0.5 ApR at F[13], for base = 2 ApR. If he was a good boy and stacked 5 PP in, say longsword and 3 PP in bow, then his ApR stats for these weapons would be:

LongSword = 3.5 ApR + weapon ApR bonus (if any)
Bow = 2.5 ApR + weapon ApR bonus (if any)

No matter what bonuses apply, a character's permanent ApR can not exceed 5 ApR. I have it on good counsel that temporary effects (e.g. Haste) are not capped by this limit. Example: our Fighter armed with longSword with 1 ApR bonus would normally have 4.5 ApR in melee. He should swing at 9 ApR if Hasted.

Straight Classes (SC) can stack PP as follows:

Fighter --> 5 PP melee, 3 PP ranged (exception: Axe can have 5 PP and Throwing Axe can be used as ranged weapon. I don't know if the thrown axe numbers are internally modified to reflect 3 PP stacking like the other ranged weapons.)
Paladin and Ranger --> 2 PP melee and ranged.
All other classes --> 1 PP melee and ranged.

MC Fighter/X (and MC Ranger/X ??) can stack 2 PP melee and ranged.

DC Fighter/X can stack up to 5 PP melee and 3 PP ranged ONLY WHEN FIGHTER CLASS IS ACTIVE. A PP placed by any another DC class into a weapon that has any Fighter PPs will be lost when Fighter skills become active (i.e., PP in same weapon from different classes will not stack with each other).

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 11-19-2004, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Kaelas]

That's what I was looking for, thanks alot.

My curiosity is sated... almost.

I remember Jaheira, a MC Fighter/Druid from BG2, being able to use plate-armor and all types of shields. Did that change in IwD?
If so I hope there's a nice buckler and a proper leather armor somewhere out there in the cold.