Controlling attributes, critical chance, and skills

Dorkus · 06-12-2002, 04:09 PM

I posted this on another board, but i thought I'd post it here as well.

Ok, I just did some testing with a samurai against a pack of 6 juggernauts (good for testing because they have a TON of hp). I used a save game editor to hack a level 20-something samurai equal in EVERY RESPECT except senses. Both had 100 in swords, dual weapons, critical chance, and close combat. The ONLY difference was that one had 45 in senses, and the other was maxed at 100. The below data reflect the NUMBER OF HITS to reaching an instant kill:

High senses:
8 32 36 17 1 39 55 13 17 2 9 1 6 59 10 5 17 22 4

Total: 19/353 = 0.0538

Low senses:
7 2 2 45 1 4 3 128 11 26 22 42 23 35 10 4
Total: 17/385 = 0.0441

Given that we have a pretty extreme outlier in the second sample (128... I waited a LONG time for that one), I don't think it's at ALL implausible to assert that senses has NO effect on critical chance.

So, in essence, SENSE is USELESS for the critical fighter, and all of these builds that suggest that you build up senses need to seriously rethink their stat progression!

(On another note, I'm VERY disappointed in the max rate of critical hit. 1 out of 20 is dismally low -- I'd much rather pump close combat to 50 for the extra attack, or dual wield for the secondary attacks.... heck, i'd rather pump mythology so i can see the # of hitpoints on the monsters!)

Repost #2

Let me describe the data a bit better:

Each number above is the number of SUCCESSFUL hits it took for me to reach a critical hit. For example, the first number 8 means that I got my first critical on my 8th HIT. Now this samurai was pumped so high that he rarely missed (maybe 1 out of 15 or so), but I did NOT count misses (this should not make a difference statistically, since I did not count misses for BOTH of the samurai).

The samurai were both wielding an enchanted katana in the primary hand, and a regular Wakizashi in the secondary hand. IIRC, she had 3 swings and 2 attacks for primary, and 2 swings and 2 attacks for secondary. None of this should make a difference in critical chance, of course.

Repost #3

(Note: 'Avenstar' from the other board asserted that attributes have NO EFFECT on skills other than to improve the speed at which they increase through practice)

Assuming the data in that post [Note: ie my post above] is generalizable to other skills, it seems that avenstar is exactly right -- "controlling attributes" means ONLY that the attribute increases the speed at which a skill improves by PRACTICE. It DOES NOT mean that the attribute affects the power or effectiveness of the skill.

So, for example, it seems likely that intelligence does nothing for a bard's music, other than increasing the rate at which the music skill increases (pointless, since music is easy to train). Which ALSO means that building a bard with intelligence is close to pointless -- I'd much rather pump the points into STR and DEXTERITY and give the guy a sword.

otter · 06-12-2002, 06:15 PM

So, how about Senses affecting initiative, combat skills, scouting, etc?
Makes you also wonder: Does Strength (eg) really affect hit & damage (eg)?
I know my more intelligent Bishop fizzles fewer spells...but i haven't noticed whether Senses affects Psionics, like it claims to...
Regarding Critical Strike, i agree, it's much wimpier than i would have thought, even my Fairy Ninja with 2 Kill+ weapons and maxes in all (supposedly) related Attributes and Skills has more magic insta-kills than combat ones.

MasterPooBaa · 06-12-2002, 09:19 PM

indeed
ive found that my lord with diamond eyes does just as many criticals as either my ninja with dual nunchakas/shruikens or my samurai with enchanted katana/wakashi.

Dorkus · 06-15-2002, 07:37 PM

Senses DO affect iniatiative and to-hit. They also definitely affect scouting (my 100 sense gadgeteer spots EVERYTHING and QUICKLY). And strength certainly DOES affect to-hit and damage. The only effects that DO NOT exist are those that are not DIRECTLY and SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the stat descriptions

Intelligence affects spell-casting, and senses affects psionics, only to the extent that they increase the RATE at which the skills improve -- once you max out the skill, your stat score is irrelevant.

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06-12-2002, 04:09 PM	#1
Dorkus Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: June 12, 2002 Location: Cambridge, MA Posts: 12	I posted this on another board, but i thought I'd post it here as well. Ok, I just did some testing with a samurai against a pack of 6 juggernauts (good for testing because they have a TON of hp). I used a save game editor to hack a level 20-something samurai equal in EVERY RESPECT except senses. Both had 100 in swords, dual weapons, critical chance, and close combat. The ONLY difference was that one had 45 in senses, and the other was maxed at 100. The below data reflect the NUMBER OF HITS to reaching an instant kill: High senses: 8 32 36 17 1 39 55 13 17 2 9 1 6 59 10 5 17 22 4 Total: 19/353 = 0.0538 Low senses: 7 2 2 45 1 4 3 128 11 26 22 42 23 35 10 4 Total: 17/385 = 0.0441 Given that we have a pretty extreme outlier in the second sample (128... I waited a LONG time for that one), I don't think it's at ALL implausible to assert that senses has NO effect on critical chance. So, in essence, SENSE is USELESS for the critical fighter, and all of these builds that suggest that you build up senses need to seriously rethink their stat progression! (On another note, I'm VERY disappointed in the max rate of critical hit. 1 out of 20 is dismally low -- I'd much rather pump close combat to 50 for the extra attack, or dual wield for the secondary attacks.... heck, i'd rather pump mythology so i can see the # of hitpoints on the monsters!) Repost #2 Let me describe the data a bit better: Each number above is the number of SUCCESSFUL hits it took for me to reach a critical hit. For example, the first number 8 means that I got my first critical on my 8th HIT. Now this samurai was pumped so high that he rarely missed (maybe 1 out of 15 or so), but I did NOT count misses (this should not make a difference statistically, since I did not count misses for BOTH of the samurai). The samurai were both wielding an enchanted katana in the primary hand, and a regular Wakizashi in the secondary hand. IIRC, she had 3 swings and 2 attacks for primary, and 2 swings and 2 attacks for secondary. None of this should make a difference in critical chance, of course. Repost #3 (Note: 'Avenstar' from the other board asserted that attributes have NO EFFECT on skills other than to improve the speed at which they increase through practice) Assuming the data in that post [Note: ie my post above] is generalizable to other skills, it seems that avenstar is exactly right -- "controlling attributes" means ONLY that the attribute increases the speed at which a skill improves by PRACTICE. It DOES NOT mean that the attribute affects the power or effectiveness of the skill. So, for example, it seems likely that intelligence does nothing for a bard's music, other than increasing the rate at which the music skill increases (pointless, since music is easy to train). Which ALSO means that building a bard with intelligence is close to pointless -- I'd much rather pump the points into STR and DEXTERITY and give the guy a sword.

06-12-2002, 06:15 PM	#2
otter Elminster Join Date: March 26, 2002 Location: portland or Posts: 434	So, how about Senses affecting initiative, combat skills, scouting, etc? Makes you also wonder: Does Strength (eg) really affect hit & damage (eg)? I know my more intelligent Bishop fizzles fewer spells...but i haven't noticed whether Senses affects Psionics, like it claims to... Regarding Critical Strike, i agree, it's much wimpier than i would have thought, even my Fairy Ninja with 2 Kill+ weapons and maxes in all (supposedly) related Attributes and Skills has more magic insta-kills than combat ones.

06-12-2002, 09:19 PM	#3
MasterPooBaa Zhentarim Guard Join Date: April 15, 2002 Location: OZ! Age: 48 Posts: 332	indeed ive found that my lord with diamond eyes does just as many criticals as either my ninja with dual nunchakas/shruikens or my samurai with enchanted katana/wakashi. __________________ Today is a good day for SOMEONE ELSE to die!!!!!

06-15-2002, 07:37 PM	#4
Dorkus Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: June 12, 2002 Location: Cambridge, MA Posts: 12	Senses DO affect iniatiative and to-hit. They also definitely affect scouting (my 100 sense gadgeteer spots EVERYTHING and QUICKLY). And strength certainly DOES affect to-hit and damage. The only effects that DO NOT exist are those that are not DIRECTLY and SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the stat descriptions Intelligence affects spell-casting, and senses affects psionics, only to the extent that they increase the RATE at which the skills improve -- once you max out the skill, your stat score is irrelevant.

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