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Old 10-12-2004, 04:12 PM   #1
Larry_OHF
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I just heard on the news that pay-per-view has a televised debate tonight in London that supposedly will be the first world-wide open-forum debate of its kind. If I heard right...the president of the NRA will be supporting the US view on guns while an Australian woman will be representing the rest of the world! It is supposed to be one that you would not want to miss kinda deals. I don't have the option to view this event, so will somebody watch it and report back to us on how it turned out?
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Old 10-12-2004, 05:23 PM   #2
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Isn't gun control a national issue rather than an international one? Illegal arms smuggling I can understand, but gun control within countries?
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:08 PM   #3
Larry_OHF
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stratos:
Isn't gun control a national issue rather than an international one? Illegal arms smuggling I can understand, but gun control within countries?
That is not the point of this particular debate, however. I think it is a chance for the voice of the whole European collective to try and teach the US that there is a better way. The US will be having its stand to defend its choices outside of the rest of the world.

I heard this woman talk about the stand point of England and Australia, and the reasons behind what their rules incorporate, and I gotta admit that she is a strong advocate for her point of view. In the past, the US has been able to use the second admendment to protect its pro-gun stand, but that will not work in this debate. I really hope somebody here will let me know how it goes.
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:14 PM   #4
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So are you saying Stratos that we should not worry about going on holidays and getting wasted in another part of the world where the event night not have happened if there had been gun control?

Having said that though, it is very clear that gun control will remain a national issue rather than an international one. Change has to come from within - if it was imposed then them there militias are gunna start putting the wagons in a circle and digging in for a scrap .

There are too many of the "cold dead hands" brigade standing ready to put up the barricades and wave some muzzles to protect their current rights. They oppose change from within most vociferously, and change from without stands as much chance as those school children at Columbine did. BTW, I would agree with those that would fight to the bitter end an imposed change from without because I agree it is a national issue. International opinion is going to be listened to the same amount as was some of those kids pleas not to be shot in the cafeteria.

So summing up Larry - I hope the Aussie girl kicks NRA butt - but whether she does or not - status quo is inevitable for many years to come.
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:17 PM   #5
Larry_OHF
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I think she will have more to stand on during the issue, and the valid points of so many other nations will be behind her. It is really supposed to be a fun debate to watch, as it is "open forum", so watch out!

Man...I wish I could see it.

So...does anybody know more about this event and why they are having it? Is there something that I do not know as to why it is even being staged?
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:36 PM   #6
Stratos
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
quote:
Originally posted by Stratos:
Isn't gun control a national issue rather than an international one? Illegal arms smuggling I can understand, but gun control within countries?
That is not the point of this particular debate, however. I think it is a chance for the voice of the whole European collective to try and teach the US that there is a better way. The US will be having its stand to defend its choices outside of the rest of the world.

font>
[/QUOTE]But the right to bear arms is in the Second Amendment and limited to the USA alone. It has no direct relevance outside USA's borders. Same thing the other way around with European constitutions. I think it will just be a ideological debate where where one side really doesn't need to heed the words of the other side, since everyone can just after the debate go home to their own countries and their own laws. I don't think it will fundamentally change anything. It will probably just be a matter of "you do what you want on your side of the Atlantic, and we on ours."
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Old 10-12-2004, 06:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
So are you saying Stratos that we should not worry about going on holidays and getting wasted in another part of the world where the event night not have happened if there had been gun control?

Of course you should worry, but if you're visiting a country, you have to take the bad with the good. I see the gun control issue as mainly a national issue as it involves nation laws. International debates like this are just a more advanced version of the gun debates we've had here at IW. The gun control crowd in the US will perhaps have more stastistics to throw in the face of their opponents (the other way around may be true as well) while the endline from the pro gun crowd will be "Our country, our rules." But perhaps I'm just being pessimistic.

[ 10-12-2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]
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Old 10-12-2004, 11:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
That is not the point of this particular debate, however. I think it is a chance for the voice of the whole European collective to try and teach the US that there is a better way.
Not too long ago, somebody had a certain, um, Revolution, yes it was a Revolution, where we overthrew the influence of imperious European powers and their highly disagreeable policies gun control among them. You can talk about a better way, but until you shake your near absolute dependancy upon benevolent dictatorships, without the use of violence, I'm afraid that you're going to not have much to say. After all, it's because of force of arms that you're not currently translating this point from German...

Quote:
The US will be having its stand to defend its choices outside of the rest of the world.
And Europe will have to defend its, and excuse this from a "rugged individualist" standpoint, apparently childish, and downright delusional decision to hope that momma knows best, and momma will do no wrong...

As I recall, Europeans have a problem with a momma that likes the "Sadistic abuse for the simple pleasure of it" school of parenting.

America had enough of that back in '76, and we decided that the government would be the people's whipping boy, not the other way around.

Quote:
I heard this woman talk about the stand point of England and Australia, and the reasons behind what their rules incorporate, and I gotta admit that she is a strong advocate for her point of view.
Was she able in some capacity to justify through result these legislations? In the US, result wouldn't be enough anyways, not that result justification even exists. On the contrary. Just ask John Stossel.

Quote:
In the past, the US has been able to use the second admendment to protect its pro-gun stand, but that will not work in this debate.
Oh? The highest standing law in this country is the Constitution. We can't go pissing on that. That's a combination of things that just begs the people to revolt and overthrow the government. I know Europeans have a tradition of not doing this even well after their rights have been grossly violated.

Quote:
I really hope somebody here will let me know how it goes.
Excuse my candor, but to quote George Carlin:

"It's about as exciting as watching flies ****!"

I'm about as interested in a European politician's opinion on Domestic policy in my country as I'm certain you're interested in Pat Buchanan's position on your Domestic policy. Let America solve its own problems, or stop complaining when we act like a self-appointed policeman.

Quote:
Originally posted by Davros:
So are you saying Stratos that we should not worry about going on holidays and getting wasted in another part of the world where the event night not have happened if there had been gun control?
First, I ask, no I challenge you, as men are challenged to duels, to prove that gun control has in some fashion reduced crime, anywhere, or that gun control would prevent a single murder, anywhere. Good luck.

Furthermore, if you don't like the US's gun policies enough that you're worried about getting shot, well, don't come here. You have no particular right to be here above and beyond citizens of this country. And since I wholeheartedly object to Australian gun policy, I won't go there. Not like I have any business there anyways.

Quote:
Having said that though, it is very clear that gun control will remain a national issue rather than an international one. Change has to come from within - if it was imposed then them there militias are gunna start putting the wagons in a circle and digging in for a scrap .
Now that just pisses me off. It's downright rude, condescending and it is several levels below any civilized debate. You may think you're being real funny, but you're treading on some damn sensitive ground right now, with some very sharp cleats. I could start taking a giant piss on certain elements of Australian culture and history, but that would be wrong.

Quote:
There are too many of the "cold dead hands" brigade standing ready to put up the barricades and wave some muzzles to protect their current rights. They oppose change from within most vociferously, and change from without stands as much chance as those school children at Columbine did.
The Simpsonian law of Heuristics strikes again! BfC isn't a reliable source on anything about America, least of all Moore's non-hometown Flint Michigan.

To say that a couple of Nazi Psychopaths (they were both) like they are an honest representation of the Second Ammendment foundationalist types is a beyond unreasonable and downright myopic way of looking at the situation.

You ought to read the Nazi platform for starters...

I suppose if you're afraid of people voting from the rooftops, you think the .50 ban in California was a good idea. Then you found out I hope that despite the lack of crimes committed with .50BMG loaded rifles, that the law passing process in California worked something like this:

1)Watch action movies with such rifles
2)Assume such rifles are used a lot by criminals
3)Plan to do research
4)Stay up partying all night staring at naughty zoo and drinking S'mores Schnapps
5)Don't do research
6)Put bill on floor anyways
7)Vote
8)Fail to pass
9)Put up again
10)Fail to pass
11)Put up again
12)Knowing it will fail, vote (illegally) in presence of nonpresent state assemblymen

I forgot the step inbetween steps 5 and 6, acquire (through political connections at the top of state government) Concealed Carry Weapon permit while saying that they shouldn't be allowed. Well, this rule only applies if you're Dianne Feinstein or a scumsucking elitist rat-bastard. If any disparity exists between the two however, it's news to me!

Quote:
BTW, I would agree with those that would fight to the bitter end an imposed change from without because I agree it is a national issue. International opinion is going to be listened to the same amount as was some of those kids pleas not to be shot in the cafeteria.
That's ambiguous, you admit that and agree with the sentiment that international opinion is not relevant to the issue as it affects individual nations, but then you go back on the BfC thing at the end, totally rendering the statements in ambiguity. This is even crazier than a John Kerry speech.

Quote:
So summing up Larry - I hope the Aussie girl kicks NRA butt - but whether she does or not - status quo is inevitable for many years to come.
I seriously doubt she will. She'll call him a cowboy a few times, mention George Bush, maybe even call him a right-wing fanatic or an extremist. She might even call him something even ruder and more condescending. He'll cite some statistics, she'll continue frothing. That's if it's anything like a VPC/NRA debate...Have they ever debated eachother? That's a real "Grinch at the top of Mount Krumpet" moment for us all...

[ 10-13-2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]
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Old 10-13-2004, 09:11 AM   #9
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Head in the sand as usual Oblivion [img]smile.gif[/img] - might doesn't equal right, and lengthy replies mean doodly squat over shorter ones iff'n you don't read what was said in the first place.

Tell me where I used BfC for an argument in my post instead of where I spoke of the kids of Columbine. My reply was nothing about Mr Moore's documentary, nor did I touch on your usual ostrich approach to said movie. I haven't bought BfC the movie, or the Director into this discussion, and would be just as happy to leave both out.

The examples I used in my two similes may be evocative but they remain relevant for all that you try to tie them to your dismissal of the movie. The kids had little chance, and their pleas weren't listened to. Would you like to tell me which of those statements you disagree with, and for the Kewpie Doll on the top shelf, tell us why.

So the statement about gun control being a national issue, change having to come from within, amd militias circlin the wagons strikes you as rude does it. Nothing of debate in your reply to this paragraph - just comments about you internal angst level. Would you care to elaborate on what I said rather than on sharing your emotive drive with me.

Tell me what you disagree with. Is gun control a national issue like I said? I am thinking that you would agree with me. If change is ever to be effected, will it come from within, or be imposed from outside the country? I am thinkin it will only ever come from within if it indeed ever happens. Now if you are calm while reading this, I am betting you will probably agree again. Are there not people out there who resist change by shouting the mantra that goes along the lines of "cold dead hands" and would rather take the law into their own hands than see the 2nd amendment overturned and gun controls introduced by some no-good useless Beatnik liberal government of the future. I am thinking yes.

Perhaps you meant to say "I don't happen to like yer tone Mr Davros, but I actually agree with what you said in that there paragraph".
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Old 10-13-2004, 09:28 AM   #10
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I believe it was the "cold dead hands" reference that is the link to BfC, which probably means you've been pigeon-holed into being a Moore liberal already.

As for the debate, i'm sure it will be interesting, if only because it's a debate and you might learn something. Debate is always a good thing because it forces you to re-assess old ideas which would otherwise become entrenched in your thinking if they were not questioned.

As for proof that banning guns reduces crime, I rather suspect it's like smoking. As far as I understand it, nobody has actually managed to prove that cancer follows smoking in the same way that 'a' follows 'b'. Yet the research is so compelling, and the coincidences so large, that any right-minded person would agree that smoking causes cancer.

All I know is, I'm much more likely to get shot in America than I am in the UK or Australia. It seems fairly obvious to me why that is, especially as most of the high publicity gun crime isn't caused by criminals.

But, it's your life, so if you value the 2nd amendment over the increased risk of you being shot then that's entirely up to you - I'm not living in the US, so it's not something that bothers me particularly. It just seems fairly common-sense that as you increase the number of guns in a country then you increase the risk of them being used in a harmful way.

[ 10-13-2004, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]
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