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Old 11-26-2002, 10:03 AM   #1
Callum Kerr
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Join Date: October 11, 2002
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It is now about 11 00pm in malaysia and at 11 00am tomorrow I have to deliver a speech in a class debate about "The world would be a better place without religion" (I know it's morally offensive etc) I was wondering if anyone at all would have a speech on the subject - preferrably on satanism and sacrifices (you know the bad side of religion), or how atheists still have morals, even though they have no religion - but beggars cannot be choosers so anything at all is good... hell, in 10000 members, there must be someone who has done this topic for a speech...

Ta
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Old 11-26-2002, 10:04 AM   #2
Callum Kerr
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Alternatively, there could be a freak in those 10000 members who likes writing and would like to write me a speech... in which case here is my research so far:

Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.
Many theists believe in miracle healing. There have been plenty of instances of ill people being "healed" by a priest, ceasing to take the medicines prescribed to them by doctors, and dying as a result. Some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions on religious grounds.
It is arguable that the Catholic Church's opposition to birth control - and condoms in particular - is increasing the problem of overpopulation in many third-world countries and contributing to the spread of AIDS world-wide.
Religious believers have been known to murder their children rather than allow their children to become atheists or marry someone of a different religion. Religious leaders have been known to justify murder on the grounds of blasphemy.
There have been many religious wars. Even if we accept the argument that religion was not the true cause of those wars, it was still used as an effective justification for them.
Can anyone tell us of an instance when they did not do something, because they were afraid of going to hell, or being otherwise punished BY GOD, not by parents?
The world is in moral decay, say the theists, because of "moral relativism." Only a divine power makes possible an absolute standard of right and wrong, they say. And yet, entirely aside from the evil that men (and women) do, there is much that is terrible and unjust in the world, so that if there be a God, we realize, He can not be both all-good and all-powerful. Because if He were, He would put an end to such things.
But I'm afraid the situation is much, much worse even than that. Four hundred years before Jesus Christ is supposed to have been born, Socrates asked "whether the pious or holy is beloved by the gods because it is holy, or holy because it is beloved of the gods." Socrates also observed that the gods--plural-- argued and disagreed about right and wrong as much as human beings. He got around this by supposing that that which all the gods approved was the good, and that which they all objected to was the evil, and that all else was neither good nor evil. He might just as well have considered the problem of a single god-- like that of the Christian Bible--who's inconsistent about what is beloved. But, as we know only too well, there simply is no honest way out of contradictions like that.
So let's just consider a strictly theoretical situation. Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose there's a God, and that He, She, or It is the absolute standard of morality. Is right and wrong then simply no more than this God's say-so? Or is what is right loved by this God and what is wrong hated by this God because of what right and wrong are in themselves?
In the first instance, if good and evil are no more than the product of the will of a divine power, and if that will is truly free, then such a God could, with a thought, cause what we consider to be the most repugnant and heinous criminal act to become the highest virtue. Now the further question would arise, of course, as to whether if this happened we would know it. Why? Because of "the moral law within us," as the philosopher Immanuel Kant put it, or "the work of the law written in our hearts," as "Saint Paul" acknowledged. If morality is the say-so of a God, then presumably, like the gravitational effects of a massive body, any change in His (or Her or Its) will would cause our own consciences to be instantaneously altered. I've never heard of this happening, though.
At any rate, if there is a God, and if this God's will determines what is right and wrong, then this supposed God's being all-good is no more than His (or Her or Its) being all-powerful. Is that an absolute morality? I don't think so. Rather, it's a morality that's completely relative to His (or Her or Its) desire. In a word--well, three actually--it's *might makes right*. It's another version of the law of the jungle. How's that for an admirable system of morality?
The only uncertainty remaining is whether it's more or less pathetic than the alternative situation of a God who is Himself (or Herself or Itself) subject to a logically anterior or prior standard of morality. That would be the case in the second instance of things that are good being beloved by God because they're good, because, of course, that puts God on the same level with human beings. It makes Him (or Her or It) irrelevant.
Well, we know He--or She or It--is irrelevant. That's why we're revolted by such Biblical stories as that of Yahweh asking Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as a burnt offering--as if an all-good God could be pleased by a criminal act. Did Abraham really think he was flattering Yahweh to agree to do such a thing? It's curious that this same God is also supposed to have issued orders of mass extermination, orders that "The Good Book" tells us were actually carried out with less hesitation than Abraham had in preparing to kill his own son.
Well, so much for theistic "absolute morality." It's anything but.
Anyone who has debated the existence of God with a Christian is sure to have been presented with some variant of the following proposition: "If God does not exist, then there is no reason to do x," where x is any kind of behavior that most of us think morality requires. For instance, a missionary that intercepted me en route to the UIC Bookstore last month informed me that if God did not exist, then there would be no reason for one to remain faithful to one's spouse or to care for one's children. Such assertions are meant to imply that atheism is a path to evil, and Christianity a path to good. However, they actually prove quite the opposite.
Imagine that somehow, someone comes up with a conclusive disproof of the existence of God. What would happen to my missionary friend? He believes that if God does not exist, there is no reason to be faithful to his wife or to care for his children. So in the face of proof that God does not exist, this missionary would apparently give in to whatever lust and laziness he might feel, and thus wreck what should have been a close, loving family.
How about an atheist like me? What would a conclusive disproof of the existence of God do to my moral stature? Considering that I don't believe in God to begin with, the answer is that a disproof of the existence of God would not cause me to change my moral views at all. But I think I can speak for most atheists when I say that cheating on one's spouse or abandoning one's children is not morally acceptable. As far as the atheist is concerned, the Christian assertion that "if God does not exist, then there is no reason to care for one's children" is false. The Christian may believe that proposition if he wants, but we atheists will have no part of such immorality. Although, judging from their assertions, Christians seem to believe that it is wrong to abandon one's children only if God exists, atheists believe it is wrong to abandon one's children regardless of whether or not God exists, and this gives the atheist a much stronger moral foundation than the Christian.
A good atheist parent probably looks after her children because she loves them - love itself gives her every reason to not abandon them. But if the Christians really believe that the nonexistence of God leaves them no reason to not abandon their children - not even the reason of love - it follows that Christians do not love their children. But then again, what can one expect from a religion that teaches that the greatest manifestation of love is an entity that jealously tortures or destroys everyone who does not love, worship, and glorify it above everything and everyone else forever?
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Old 11-26-2002, 10:50 AM   #3
purre
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WOW Callum Kerr!!!! [img]smile.gif[/img]
That was amazing text!!!
I think you are so right..or at least that text is right,I dont know do you really think that,but anyway,amazing work [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

(well,this comes from a person who is not religious)

edit: typo!

[ 11-26-2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: purre ]
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Old 11-26-2002, 11:13 AM   #4
MagiK
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Seems rather lopsided and insulting to me, but hey, thats just my opinion. I don't feel like starting a Jihad over it.
 
Old 11-26-2002, 11:39 AM   #5
B_part
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First of all, let me say I am atheist, and generally against clergy and all the paraphernalia that go along with religions. However I would say the first part of your speech is a bit simplicistic and in some parts, in my humble opinion, wrong.

Quote:
All of these were originally posted by Callum Kerr:
Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.


Have you ever seen churches like St. Peter in Rome or St. Mary of Grace in Milan or others in Florence, Turin, well about anywhere here in Italy?
They are considered the greatest achievements of artist like Michelangelo, Leonardo, Tiziano, Raffaello, Giotto and many others... Those were all built by means of money taken from mankind, which could have been used differently.

Have you ever read the Comedy by Dante Alighieri, or even Shakespeare, and why not, the Odyssey and the Iliad, and most of the Masterpiecies of the world literature (not only of the western literature, mind that...)? Most of them are based on religion or are somehow religion related...What would be our literature without religion?

Have you ever read anything by Max Weber, a german sociologist? He tries, in one of his books (protestant ethics and capitalism spirit) to prove that the capitalism originates directly from the belief, typical of calvinist and reformed churches, that wealth is a sign of godwill, hence being rich is no more a sin (as was considered by catholics ethics) but something to be sought for god's greater glory... Capitalism is something which plays a small role in our society, you know...

What I am trying to say is that religion, any religion, not only Christian religion has influenced every society who has ever been built on Earth from 100000 b.C to the present day. And in particular, since there are few "big" religions, it has been those who have left the greatest mark on what we are today. If you keep this in mind, trying to split benefits and burdens of religion becomes quite hard, nevermind imagining what the world would have been without religion.

Obviously I don't deny that religions have had and have many downsides, you named many and I will name a couple more, just as an example: Twin Towers, Osama Bin Laden and so on... Pearl Harbor (remember the Japanese had a terrible superiority complex due to their religion...).

Quote:
Can anyone tell us of an instance when they did not do something, because they were afraid of going to hell, or being otherwise punished BY GOD, not by parents?


You named Socrates as the "founder" of atheistic morality.

Immanuel Kant (which was by the way deeply religious) tried to do the same... my english isn't good enough to get knee deep in philosophical terms, but you could try to find something about his categoric imperatives (Prolegomena to Any Future Metaphysics (1783) and Critique of Practical Reason (1788)) In my opinion his works on absolute morals are enlightening.

Notable are also his opinions about the fact that it is imnpossible to demonstrate the existence (or non existence) of God.

About the nature of God:

I think it was Nietsche (but I am far from sure) who said that God is either good or almighty... Maybe that could be a starting point if you really wish to commit suicide by venturing in the most discussed phylosophical problem ever... good luck

[ 11-26-2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: B_part ]
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Old 11-26-2002, 11:44 AM   #6
B_part
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Seems rather lopsided and insulting to me, but hey, thats just my opinion. I don't feel like starting a Jihad over it.
He's right: I generally agree about what you say, but remember that there are many who are deeply religious and your text has a generally "too strong" tone which might offend someone.
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Old 11-26-2002, 12:03 PM   #7
johnny
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It's a never ending story, pick whatever you wish and discussions will be heated no matter what.
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Old 11-26-2002, 12:05 PM   #8
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
It's a never ending story, pick whatever you wish and discussions will be heated no matter what.
Amen! (err no pun intended)
 
Old 11-26-2002, 12:09 PM   #9
johnny
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
It's a never ending story, pick whatever you wish and discussions will be heated no matter what.
Amen! (err no pun intended) [/QUOTE]I forgive you my son.
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Old 11-26-2002, 12:12 PM   #10
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by johnny:
It's a never ending story, pick whatever you wish and discussions will be heated no matter what.
Amen! (err no pun intended) [/QUOTE]I forgive you my son. [/QUOTE]LLAO I pray that I need not do pennance.
 
 


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