Why do my builds suck so bad? (yes, another build thread.)

[Mozenwrathe]

Okay, I need help. These are the themed builds I want to try to design for NeverWinter Nights specifically for the Escape From Undermountain module online here. They are all based on characters previously played by myself or good friends of mine. At least these ones are all elven to start with, so I have something to jump off from with all three.

1) Elthorion Kinslayer
fighter/weaponmaster/?

I was aiming for a strength/dexterity crossbreed build if at all possible. I don't think it is, sadly enough, so I may have to make two versions of him. In the original game we were playing in, Elthorion dual-wielded a whip and a greatsword. In this game, I know that is impossible for a Medium-sized creature for two reasons: greatswords cannot be dual-wielded by anything smaller than a Large creature, and whips MUST be in the main hand. I am willing to sacrifice the main concept in order to have him dual-wield two weapons (preferably bastard swords, but longswords may have to be substituted to conserve the feats). With that in mind, he is also supposed to be able to access magic. I am thinking a few levels in rogue (for the dexterity build) or sorcerer/cleric (for the strength-based build).

So for him I take it that starting off with a 20 Dexterity for the dexterity build is going to be essential. For the strength version of the build, what should I be aiming for if I still intend on using a whip for one of the two weapons? And really, should I even bother on a strength build to get Weapon Focus in it?

====
====

2) Ichilandar, elderboy of House Tintoreda
(ranger/weaponmaster/(rogue?)

Based as one of the blood brothers of my main character, this one I figured on doing a standard strength-based dual-wield longsword or longsword/shortsword character. Nothing really fancy, except for some competancy in the longbow. Anything specific for me to remember in that scenario?

====
====

3) Lei'Saran, bethrothed to Ichilandar, hunter-slayer
(ranger or fighter/rogue/assassin or shadowdancer)

Looking for a character build that is great with the whole stealth thing, but doesn't slack off when it comes to hitting people. More than likely a purely dexterity-based character, as I doubt she'll be using anything else than shortswords, rapiers, and daggers. (Maybe some of those new maces to play percussion on an opponent's head.)

[T-D-C]

I always recommend this site when starting to create builds. As long as you have the classes you want you should be able to find a good base HERE

[robertthebard]

Per our discussion, one reason your builds aren't very effective stems from something we discussed in game earlier. You can't just take things as they come up. Building effective chars begins at lvl one, with planning. You don't want to take a weapon focus in long swords, if you're going to wield daggers, for example.
You need to plan all aspects of your char from the beginning, even with role playing chars. For complicated builds, I'll work them out in a leveller mod, such as the one Chewy did, and take notes of what feats I need to take when, etc. It also helps in that you'll know what feats you can and can't get, or what feats are class feats for your epic char, such as assassins getting great dexterity as a class feat, whereas rogues don't.
There are two very important aspects of chars in Undermountain; ab, and ac. Dual wielding bastard swords can cut your ab significantly, not to mention what you give up in ac.
Splitting str and dex on a char that relies on str for it's main weapon is a bad idea. You either want to use str, or dex for your main weapon attacks. Weapon finesse is useless if your str is equal or greater than you dex, and so, is a wasted feat. Better to focus in str. Personally, I like dex based chars because the attribute that controls my ab also boosts my ac. For my dexers in Undermountain, I use robes, since they have no restriction on dex bonus, which only applies to ac. Here's an interesting point for you, a fighter based AA can use full plate mail w/out giving up ab bonuses from dex, but you will limit your dex bonus to 1 for ac. Too much to go into here though.

[Mozenwrathe]

Okay, I found one build thus far I think would be suitable for Elthorion. I'll post it up here with the adjustments I would wish to make at the bottom. I'll do the same with any and all other character builds I find during the course of this thread. (I still say we should have a sticky for this kind of thing...)

====
====

Blade of the Reaper /Fighter 11 / Rogue 4 / Weapon Master 25


Hey everybody. This is my first post (hopefully of many) here, and I'd like to get your opinions, and maybe improvements on a character build that has served me well.

Name - Nasia Siger (Thoroughly unimportant)

Race - Human Female (female is also unimportant... obviously)

Class - Fighter 11 / Rogue 4 / Weapon Master 25

Alignment - Chaotic Good (although unimportant)

Playable from 1 - 40

PvM works very well, haven’t ever played PvP... though I suspect it would work well.

Starting Stats
Strength - 18 (34)
Dexterity - 13
Constitution - 12
Wisdom - 8
Intelligence - 13
Charisma - 8

Put all 10 ability points into STR

Levelling Guide

01: Fighter 1: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Prof. Exotic;
02: Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Scythe
03: Fighter 3: Expertise
04: Fighter 4: Weapon Specialisation (Scythe
05: Fighter 5:
06: Fighter 6: Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack;
07: Rogue 1:
08: Weapon Master 1: Weapon of Choice (Scythe)
09: Weapon Master 2: Power Attack
10: Weapon Master 3:
11: Weapon Master 4:
12: Weapon Master 5: Improved Critical (Scythe
13: Weapon Master 6:
14: Weapon Master 7:
15: Weapon Master 8: Cleave
16: Weapon Master 9:
17: Weapon Master 10:
18: Rogue 2: Great Cleave
19: Fighter 7:
20: Fighter 8: Knockdown
21: Fighter 9: Great STR I
22: Weapon Master 11:
23: Weapon Master 12:
24: Weapon Master 13: Great STR II, Epic Weapon Focus (Scythe)
25: Fighter 10: Epic W. Spec (Scythe)
26: Fighter 11:
27: Rogue 3: Great STR III
28: Weapon Master 14:
29: Weapon Master 15:
30: Weapon Master 16: Great STR IV, Overwhelming Critical (Scythe)
31: Weapon Master 17:
32: Weapon Master 18:
33: Weapon Master 19: Great STR V, Devastating Critical (Scythe)
34: Weapon Master 20:
35: Weapon Master 21:
36: Weapon Master 22: Great STR VI, Epic Prowess;
37: Rogue 4:
38: Weapon Master 23:
39: Weapon Master 24: Toughness
40: Weapon Master 25: Armour Skin


01: Discipline 4, Intimidate 2, Lore 4, Bank 4
02: Discipline 5, Lore 5, Bank 6
03: Discipline 6, Intimidate 3, Lore 6, Bank 6
04: Discipline 7, Lore 7, Bank 8
05: Discipline 8, Intimidate 4, Lore 8, Bank 8
06: Discipline 9, Lore 9, Bank 10
07: Tumble 10, Bank 10
08: Discipline 11, Listen 5, Lore 11, Spot 5
09: Discipline 12, Listen 6, Lore 12, Spot 6
10: Discipline 13, Listen 7, Lore 13, Spot 7
11: Discipline 14, Listen 8, Lore 14, Spot 8
12: Discipline 15, Listen 9, Lore 15, Spot 9
13: Discipline 16, Listen 10, Lore 16, Spot 10
14: Discipline 17, Listen 11, Lore 17, Spot 11
15: Discipline 18, Listen 12, Lore 18, Spot 12
16: Discipline 19, Listen 13, Lore 19, Spot 13
17: Discipline 20, Listen 14, Lore 20, Spot 14
18: Tumble 20
19: Discipline 22, Lore 22
20: Discipline 23, Lore 23, Bank 2
21: Discipline 24, Lore 24, Bank 4
22: Discipline 25, Listen 17, Lore 25, Spot 17
23: Discipline 26, Listen 18, Lore 26, Spot 18
24: Discipline 27, Listen 19, Lore 27, Spot 19
25: Discipline 28, Lore 28, Bank 2
26: Discipline 29, Lore 29, Bank 4
27: Tumble 30, Bank 4
28: Discipline 31, Listen 21, Lore 31, Spot 21
29: Discipline 32, Listen 22, Lore 32, Spot 22
30: Discipline 33, Listen 23, Lore 33, Spot 23
31: Discipline 34, Listen 24, Lore 34, Spot 24
32: Discipline 35, Listen 25, Lore 35, Spot 25
33: Discipline 36, Listen 26, Lore 36, Spot 26
34: Discipline 37, Listen 27, Lore 37, Spot 27
35: Discipline 38, Listen 28, Lore 38, Spot 28
36: Discipline 39, Listen 29, Lore 39, Spot 29
37: Tumble 40
38: Discipline 41, Lore 41
39: Discipline 42, Listen 30, Lore 42, Spot 30
40: Discipline 43, Listen 31, Lore 43, Spot 31


Skills
Discipline 43 (55/60)
Listen 30 (29)
Lore 43 (44)
Spot 31 (30)
Tumble 40 (41/43)

HP - 464 (if maxed) 646 (recommended equipment)

Natural AC 21 (10+1(dex)+tumble)+2(Armour skin)) with recommended equipment = 53

AB - With a mundane scythe, +51/+46/+41/+36 (recommended equipment +66/+61/+56/+51)

Damage - (with a mundane scythe) 2-8 + 31 physical (16-20, 5x)

Saves (recommended equipment)
Fort - 20 (30)
Reflex - 23 (30)
Will - 14 (19)

Notes:
At the cost of 40 hp (toughness), you can get impr.knockdown/disarm/impr.expertise

Strengths:
-Fantastic AB and Damage (165 - 195 on crit, with a mundane scythe)
-Devastating Critical DC 47
-Healthy amount of hit points and a solid DC
-can identify practically any item, and detect most enemies.
-sneak attack 2d6 (nothing to really gloat about)

Weaknesses
-Shamefully weak against magic
-Pitifully low saves
-rather boring to use at times

====
====

Okay, now even though this character involves a scythe, I would rather go with one of the following weapons: bastard sword (to stay close to the original themed character), greatsword (which means I no longer have to worry about choosing the exotic weapons feat and still gives me two-handed damage) or longsword (the easy and cheap way out for elves). This build I am certain was created for humans (as most are), so I would have to make adjustments for that.

All those points in Listen are not exactly wasted, but I would rather place them into something like Concentration or another skill I might use more often. Same thing goes with Spot. This build also lets me cast spells from scrolls which is good enough for the character build's basis.

[ 01-02-2007, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Mozenwrathe ]

[Mozenwrathe]

Another well-fitted version of what I was looking for is this build. (Okay, specifically for the Elthorion Kinslayer character I should mention.) Both of them I found using T-D-C's link. (You have any idea how hard that link is it to find manually? Took me over an hour. Glad you have it posted here, which allows me to bounce to it at any time.)

====
====

The Two-Fisted Weaponmaster (Fighter 10/WM 28/Rogue 2)


Playable from level 1 - 40 ..PvM

This build was inspired by a post I saw on another forum. I tweaked it somewhat but wanted to throw it out here for feedback. I built a dwarf version that focuses in Scimitar and Mace and came out with essentially the same stats. (Of course I considered tweaking that build to Ftr 10/WM 28/Assassin 2 and enrolling in the Dwarven Assassins Guild!).


The Two-Fisted Weaponmaster (Katana & Mace)
Classes: Fighter 10/WM 28/Rogue 2
Race: Human
Alignment: Any

Str 16/32
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

1 - Ftr 1 Dodge, Wpn Prof: Exotic, *Wpn Focus:Katana
2 - Ftr 2 *Wpn Focus: Mace
3 - Ftr 3 Expertise
4 - Ftr 4 *Ambidexterity
5 - Ftr 5
6 - Ftr 6 Mobility, *Two Wpn Fighting
7 - Ftr 7
8 - Ftr 8 *Spring Attack
9 - Ftr 9 Imp. Two Wpn Fighting
10 - Ftr 10 *Whirlwind Attack
11 - WM 1 Wpn of Choice: Katana
12 - WM 2 Imp. Crit: Katana
13 - WM 3
14 - WM 4
15 - WM 5 Imp. Crit: Mace
16 - WM 6
17 - WM 7
18 - WM 8 Imp. Expertise
19 - WM 9
20 - WM 10

21 - Rogue 1 Toughness
22 - WM 11
23 - WM 12
24 - WM 13 Great Str I, *Wpn of Choice: Mace
25 - WM 14
26 - WM 15
27 - WM 16 Great Str II, *EWF: Katana
28 - WM 17
29 - WM 18
30 - WM 19 Great Str III, *Epic Prowess
31 - WM 20
32 - WM 21
33 - WM 22 Great Str IV, *EWF: Mace
34 - WM 23
35 - WM 24
36 - WM 25 Great Str V, *Armor Skin
37 - WM 26
38 - WM 27
39 - WM 28 Great Str VI, *Epic Toughness I (Maximize Discipline)
40 - Rogue 2 (Maximize: UMD, Tumble, Open Lock + choice)

AC 22 BA 30 HP 455
AB: 50/45/40/35 & 50/45
Saves: Fort 22/Reflex 22/Will 15
Skills: Max Disc, Tumble, UMD, Open Lock + 50 points

====
====

Once more this build is primarily for humans, so I have no idea how I would have to re-pan this for my elven warmonger. One suggestion was made on the forum for this person to substitute Ambidexterity for Mobility. The reasoning was sound: if you are going dual-weapon, you don't need the Mobility as much as you need the Ambidexterity. I forgot if you need Mobility in order to get the weaponmaster class, however, so that is something I would need to look into. Another thing was the choice of two different weapons to focus in. If I am going to use the bastard sword or the longsword, I don't think I'd bother focusing in anything else. Maybe have the whip around for looks and a solid blunt weapon for skeletal menaces, but that's about it.

AH, read through the thread a little more, and for the HUMAN build he got the exotic feat for the katanas. For the DWARVEN version of this he went with the mace. So once again, it looks like the longswords win out over the bastard swords. I love the damage and the appearance of the bastard swords, but they are not as easy to work into a build as the longswords are (for elves at least). Another mention at the end of the thread was to go with Bard instead of Rogue and maximize Spellcraft instead of Open Lock to improve my magical saves. That pose an attractive alternative...

[Stonewarrior]

Moz - I am not sure which link TDC provided, but if it is the one I think it is then the easiest way to find it (assuming you don't have the link) is to go to Bioware's site and then to the Guild's section. Look under "E" for the Epic Character Builds Guild and you can find hundreds of builds along with a search tool stickied at the top.

One thing to consider (I will attribute this to RTB as he told me the same) is these builds might not work in EFU or other mods / PW's. Anyone can use the CBC tool to create a build and often it appears folks are bored and randomly create builds to post. Many are never played and could be complete crap. Okay, so I improvised a bit on what RTB said...but the point is they can be useful guides on generic builds...but it is best to try and make custom changes for EFU or any other mod / PW you might be playing.

Peace, John.

[robertthebard]

I might have said complete crap...sounds like me... [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

PvM is all good, and they mean well, I'm sure. The trick is to look for builds that work well in PvP as well. Most module builders don't put as much work into the NPC's/monsters that we are used to seeing in Undermountain. That being the case, a lot of the posted builds will work in low magic worlds, even in some of the low magic PvP worlds. It's funny, here I sit now, with two logins worth of munchkins, for the most part, and I used to never build them that way. I learned my lesson from the last PvP tourney we had in Undermountain, even though I actually did get out of the second round...The point is, solo survivability in Undermountain is kinda dependant on uberism, and since we can't bring in our own gear, how I wish...we have to accomplish that through the builds. I have maybe two chars that can't solo their way down to 14, even though I can't say how well they'd do either in the Proving Grounds, or now on 14. Use those builds for guides, make them up in a leveller mod, and take a look at what you actually end up with, and tweak accordingly. Make notes on the tweaks, and have them handy, and what ever you do, don't get lost in the moment when somebody hands in a big quest, and you gain 4 or 5 levels, or more, at a time. Make your notes, and follow them.

[Mozenwrathe]

some of this stuff makes me want to cry.
never again do I make characters for this server purely based on the roleplaying character. maybe to the spirit of the character, but definitely not to the letter. my best hitter (barbarian 5/ fighter 7/ weapon master 28 I believe) is just about useless on Level Fourteen.
maximum AB I managed to get was around +58 with a host of strength boost, a +9 greatsword, and I think just about every focus concerning my greatsword as I could find. the saddest thing is that I never even USE the rage feature.

*sighs*

maybe tomorrow I start printing up this stuff and start working on the versions 2 through 5 of some of these characters. Elthorion I know has to have two versions, Gaki No Dachi will also need two (one for halberds - naginata and pudao, one for greatswords - nodachi). when I think about if they have been fun to play, the answer is yes. however, in order for me to continue on in the module, they have to be able to take on the enemies themselves and not hide behind others. (arguably, I think Gaki No Dachi can actually do the Drow Proving Grounds and has been used to slay demons, devils, and dragons.)

[robertthebard]

If the max ab you can get is 58, you're going to have trouble in the proving grounds as well. Rough guess on the ac's in there is a mid 80 average.

[Mozenwrathe]

sitting here looking through the builds which contain Weaponmaster/Fighter/Barbarian blends. to me, it looks like I might be better off scrapping the barbarian levels. mainly as most of the time it's set up for a low magic player vs monsters setup. the best one I saw had a maximum unaltered attack bonus of 46. that one MIGHT be the way to go if I snag enough items to get a strength bonus of +12 and a greatsword of +9. that should technically push me up to a total of +67 to hit my foes. I'll post the build now and mention what I would be thinking of changing in this case.

====
====

The Raging Bastard (Fighter 10/ Barbarian 17/ Weapon Master 13)

I recently made this build which dual wields Bastard Swords and thought I would post. You dont get the dual wield feats until level 15. I suggest using a bastard sword and shield until atleast level 15 maybe even later than that with the AB penalties. I know its not the best choice to dual wield these weapons, but I just wanted to make a big baddie who does. Will save is dreadfully low, but not much can be done about that with this build being so feat starved.

Fighter 10/ Barbarian 17/ Weapon Master 13

Human
Any Non-Lawful
1-40 PvM (untesed PvP)

STR 16 (30)
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 8

Max HPs 514
BAB 30
AB 46/41/36/31 (w/bastard sword)
42/37/32/27 42/37 (dual bastards)
1-10+16 1-10+11
15-20/x3 crit range
AC 18 (naked) 28 (plate/tower)

Saves

Fort 24
Reflex 20
Will 14 (17 w/rage)

Skills (211 points)

Discipline 43
Intimidate 43
Listen 43
Taunt 43
Tumble 20
Spell Craft 18
Points Left 1

1. Fighter (1) Weapon Proficiency:Exotic, Weapon Focus:Bastard Sword, Expertise
2. Barbarian (1)
3. Barbarian (2)Dodge
4. Fighter (2) Mobility
5. Fighter (3)
6. Fighter (4) Weapon Specialization:Bastard Sword, Spring Attack
7. Barbarian (3)
8. Barbarian (4)
9. Fighter (5) Whirlwind Attack
10. WM (1)
11. WM (2)
12. WM (3) Improved Critical:Bastard Sword
13. WM (4)
14. WM (5)
15. Fighter (6) Ambidextrity, Two Weapon Fighting
16. Barbarian (5)
17. Fighter (7)
18. Fighter (8) Blind Fight, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
19. Barbarian (6)
20. Barbarian (7)
21. Barbarian (8)Epic Weapon Focus:Bastard Sword
22. WM (6)
23. WM (7)
24. Fighter (9) Epic Weapon Specialization:Bastard Sword
25. Barbarian (9)
26. Barbarian (10)
27. Barbarian (11)Great Strength I
28. Barbarian (12)
29. WM (8)
30. WM (9) Great Strength II
31. Barbarian (13)
32. Barbarian (14)
33. Barbarian (15)Terrifying Rage
34. WM (10)
35. WM (11)
36. WM (12) Great Strength III
37. Barbarian (16)
38. WM (13) Epic Prowess
39. Fighter (10)Great Strength IV, Armor Skin
40. Barbarian (17)

With Barbarian you get Greater Rage (+6 to Str and Con, +3 Will, -2 AC) and Damage Reduction 3.
_________________

====
====

Now, if I am not aiming for Terrifying Rage, I should technically be able to switch those levels of Barbarian after the fourth level to either Fighter or WeaponMaster. I figure the way this particular build pans itself out, the Barbarian levels just get my the needed levels of Intimidation faster than regularly as it is a class skill. Secondly, this would be changed over to Greatsword so I wouldn't need to get either the exotic feats required for this build OR the dual-wielding feats. Those could be put into other things like more Strength bonuses or something suitable for a two-handed attack. Now, if I am going with light or medium armor, I should keep that Dexterity where it is, but if I was going to opt for heavy armor, I fathom I should duck some of that initial Dexterity into something else like Wisdom (for his saves) or Strength (if that's possible). I might lose a little on the Constitution in order to get more Strength out of him as well if needed. With some of the equipment available in Escape From Undermountain, I should be able to regenerate enough HP to not die immediately. That, and I should learn how to use Heal potions for myself.