ONE question to all the atheists out there....

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Grungi: oh, thought you were still asking the question for enlightenment [img]tongue.gif[/img] , i dunno you scummers eh (to anyone not from southampton or portsmouth ignore that) oh and vaskez you are from southampton arent you? epona said, but i dont know how he knows [img]tongue.gif[/img] so im assuming you are, and know what i mean by scummer [img]tongue.gif[/img] anyhows well least now you know why people who dont believe see little point in pretending they do, like myself, i personally feel i get far more respect from someone religious for being goodhearted, honest and generally a nice person than if i followed their religion, all the religious people i know and have met RL do respect me more for that, they dont care what religion i am because im a nice person (95 percent of the time [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) and i feel if a god existed he too would respect me far more for that and care about that than me not believing in him Though id like to throw something else into this discussion, i been using he for god all the time, one reason i dont think much of religion is its always about the male in charge, which at the time religions were formed was the case, the male was always in charge, so god becomes male, thats human intepretation yet again, it says to me men made the whole concept of religion up not some higher power, because if there really was a god why would he be male? and why was jesus a man (and have a beard [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) i cant think of a religion off hand where the main god is female, anyone else know? Anyhows thought id just bring that up [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hey the point here was why don't people believe in God. I wasn't saying you should be a Christian or any particular religion but then I was asked about what I thought about heaven etc. so we got onto the Christian view.

I can see reasons why people may not be Christians what I said was I cannot see why people don't believe in God. I can understand if you have looked into your heart and decided there is no God, I just couldn't understand that despite all the arguments have posted people can be sure and CONTENT in their knowledge that there is no God. I think you are wrong but we'll both find out when we die I guess

I'm not sure about the man thing in religions. I guess it's cos the religions all were first practiced in patriarchical societies. The people inspired by God to write the holy books interpreted them in a way that the people then could relate to, i.e. God is a father and there is the son. The holy spirit however has no gender? However it also says that man is created in God's image so I guess then that God must mean for us to interpret that as though he's a man. Maybe it's because males are generally the physically strong sex and were more respected at the time Jesus lived? I have no idea really, just thinking out loud.

[Grungi]

wasnt rofling at you vaskez was rofling out loud when i read what you had written as i just find what you said funny, and i think a hindu might well too, in fact as i just started dating a hindu girl atm ill find out from her [img]smile.gif[/img] , & okay if zeus was the one god why would he need the others? he was the king of gods only because the greeks needed a hierachy as at the time they had kings and that probably fitted best for them.

if as you say god is the one god and any other religions with lots of gods basicalyl worship just one god, then why would god say "dont worship false idols and other gods" ? if they all end up being one god ergo him whats he got to worry about?

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Vaskez: I just have this one thing that I can't get into my head about atheism. First let me introduce the topic a bit... You have no proof that there is a God, no scientific proof anyway. You also have no proof that there isn't a God. Ok so far? Let's take a look at the Christian God for a quick sec. For argument, let's assume everything is true, he exists, etc. He promises eternal life after death, guidance and care during life on Earth and in exchange he asks that you do not sin, you acknowledge when you have sinned and you admit and accept him for what he is. Now most law-abiding moral people do the first two anyway. Ok now let's assume there is no God. Ok so you die, you die and there is no ultimate purpose to life. Woohoo. If you believe in the first argument that there is a God etc., and you learn about him, and in the end believe then two things could happen when you die: 1) You will be rewarded for your faith with eternal life and happiness when you die, i.e. you go to "a better place". Everything is cool. 2) You were mistaken about God and He doesn't exist and you just die. What have you lost? Nothing. If you believe in the 2nd argument that there is no God you live your whole life in that belief and then you die. If you were mistaken and there is a God you will have lost your whole Earth life without that knowledge and the happiness, peace, guidance it could have brung. You also could lose your place in eternal life. If you were not mistaken then you die anyway and that's it. NOW for my question: seeing as you have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain by believing and you have so much to lose and nothing to gain by not believing, why is it that so many people are atheists? I just don't get it? This is truly puzzling for me since people have no proof either way, it makes much more sense to believe and I haven't even mentioned all the other indications (note I do not say evidence) that there is a God. So any atheists care to shed some light on the matter? I'm not trying to give this "nothing to lose" as a reason for believing I'm just saying if nothing else makes you believe, what do you think about this post? my thoughts continue near the bottom of page 3 in the bloody long post if you still interested

This is basicly Pascal's Wager. Where Pascal laid out the exact same reasoning you have. Pascal's arguements didn't budge me and I hate to dissappoint you, but yours didn't either [img]smile.gif[/img]

I do not need the fear of eternal punishment to lead a moral and ethical life.

[Grungi]

and yes vaskez thats exactly why god was intepreted as a man. Human intepretation of him, for me if god really existed then he would be neither man nor woman, not in the human form at all afterall if he represents all life then i would say he would be something you couldnt really see or understand, maybe at best a star trek type wavey smoke thing, jesus was his human form, holy ghost is his spiritual form, so why is he portrayed as a guy? if god existed he'd have made sure he was an equal being, not an egocentric creation, thats my opinion on it and another reason why i dont believe in god.

Originally posted by Rokenn: I do not need the fear of eternal punishment to lead a moral and ethical life.

Hate to be a noodge here but...Moral and ethical as judged by what measure? If you don't use God then you use some other subjective and or arbitrary measures. So I am just curious whos measure are you using to judge your reletive morality and ethicalness?

[Vaskez]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Okay, Vaskez, read your long post. Still I do not waver. There is a human immortal soul. It is the teleological story of the species-being's growth, maturation, and existence over time. I am very spiritual. I have a duty to future generations of human beings and a responsibility for my actions that extends beyond the end of my life not because I will get rewarded or punished but rather because it is my little job in the vastness of human history. However, I see no reason to believe in a God. The universe is eternal - I don't need to dream up some imaginary being and say he/she/it created the universe because that simple begs another question, to wit who made God? I am humbled by the immortality of all that is and do not need to personify it into a "God." That is the worst kind of arrogance for a human to engage in. I do support organized religion, however, and I have written tomes on this very board regarding that. Put simply, I think I'm smart enough and responsible enough and educated enough try to do the right thing without the "carrot and stick" of religion, but I don't trust all of my fellow humans to be quite so smart, responsible, or educated.

Yeah as I said this thread wasn't about the benefits or drawbacks or religion, only about why people don't believe in a God. Personally I think what IS arrogant is people who think that they know everything they need to know to live well. I have given loads of reasons to believe in a God. Even if you don't agree with them, don't say that you don't see any reason because there are many. I have already answered your question about who made God? That is the oldest argument out there I wish we didn't have to go around in circles. I think that God is the only thing that didn't need anything/one else to create him. That's why he is God i.e. supreme being. You believe what my ex-gf believed - the eternity of the universe itself. She would say - why does anything need to have a beginning and an end? Well that's not good enough to put my mind at rest as atoms don't think and yet we have a wonderfully complex world that even thinking humans can't figure out except in tiny steps.

[WillowIX]

Interesting post Vaskez although it went somewhat off topic.

In regards to your original post I don´t see why death ("go to a better place")should inspire faith. What do I lose by choosing not to believe in God? If I live a happy life can´t I be content with that? Must I ask for more? Isn´t love of my family and friends enough? In my young life I have been blessed with meeting a man I adore, with two children, and with a family that is always by my side. IMO I don´t need any more than that. I don not belive in the human soul either. Why not? Since today it´s somewhat clear what happens in human development, how thoughts are processed and memory expanded. This is of course not the single reason but an explanation. My hubby told me a quotte from a book he read some time ago and it stuck in my memory. I find it beautiful and it suits my belief

Any good that I may do, let me do it now, for I may not pass this way again.

I think that in some ways clarifies my expectations of life. As for atheist not believing I totally disagree with you. Don´t they believe? Of course they do, but it is the exact opposite belief. Whereas you choose to believe there is a God, they choose to BELIEVE there is no God.

Originally posted by Vaskez: People who believe that they are fine just by living a good moral life: this is all well and good but if you just admit the possibility that the Bible is true then it's not good enough. Like I said if you admit the possibility then you'd be stupid to just be satisfied with that.

This paragraph (well half a pragraph) I almost find offensive! Yes I do admit that the bible may be true. Why isn´t it enough for me to live a good moral life anyway? If the bible is true and God created humans, God also gave us the gift of free will and individual thinking. So why should it be stupid to choose not to believe even though what the bible say is true? Did God then make a mistake in giving humans free will? I may have misunderstod your statement, but I will not speak my mind if I have not.

[Vaskez]

This is basicly Pascal's Wager. Where Pascal laid out the exact same reasoning you have. Pascal's arguements didn't budge me and I hate to dissappoint you, but yours didn't either [img]smile.gif[/img] I do not need the fear of eternal punishment to lead a moral and ethical life.

I've never seen that pascal stuff, my thoughts were original to me. Anyway I wish I didn't have to repeat myself but I guess I can't expect people to read this whole thread [img]smile.gif[/img] post on page 1 wasn't meant to be a reason to budge just a reason to make people content with atheism less content and for me to find out some stuff. Arguments on page 3 long post are convincing IMO

[Timber Loftis]

Well, Vasqez, I simply disagree. A supreme being is simply an answer you latch onto to your inability to fathom eternity. As for going around in circles, sorry I didn't read your complete thesis herein, but I simply can't scan all pages right now.

As for the order of the universe. In an infitely large universe pure mathematics tells you that sooner or later every possible thing will occur.

P.S. Please, if you don't mind, link or post the portion of your argument regarding the "who made god" question.
P.P.S. I am not a gambling man. Like most attorneys (no kidding - it's a statistic), I don't rely on chance any more than I absolutely have to.

[ 01-22-2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

YO TL check yer PM's [img]smile.gif[/img] Ill delete this post in a few minutes sorry for the interuption.....Im not an atheist so not qualified to answer the original question [img]smile.gif[/img]

TL as an aside on your post...I don't rely on chance any more than you do [img]smile.gif[/img] I firmly believe the creed, "God helps those who help themselves" meaning, I take care of business and if I need a nudge of luck here and there, thats where god steps in [img]smile.gif[/img]