Where did the "Whats an American" thread go?

[Durwyn]

How can you defend me when you disagree with me? Its like having a lawyer that knows your guilty and doesnt do his job well. Makes no sence Thoran.

Now lets get to facts. It is a fact that 99% of Russian Jews go to Brooklyn/Brighton Beach, New York when they immigrate to USA. It is also a fact that I worked at Brighton Beach and I've seen a good share of Russian Jews to say what I have said.

Need I say more of my reasons for saying that most of Russian Jews are cheap, sneaky people who will play you off and try to cheat you over anything? Oh espesially any form of money, they will do anything to get money its as though they have traded in their souls for money.

Trust me I have facts, many situations when I and my friends even my mother has been dissed or mocked by a Russian Jew that was her boss, or cheated out and played over something or by something. And that is just one of the many reasons that made me say what I've said.

So yes, step off, step off the topic if you dont have any experiences to back up the words you say or calling me prejudice for a reason you dont even know of. Thats all I'm saying there Thoran, hopefully no hard feeling my firend...

Cheers..

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Durwyn ]

[Sazerac]

Durwyn, that is ENOUGH. I have no doubt that you have experienced some form of bad experience at the hands of SOME people of that ethnic persuasion, but you are generalizing that to the population as a whole. I have a very good friend, almost like a older sister to me, who lives near Dallas who is of Russian-Jewish extraction and she is NOTHING like what you describe.

Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, you are maligning an entire ethnic group, which we don't do here. Please leave off...we are all well aware of your feelings about them now. If this is the reason the original thread got "nuked", I can understand why.

-Sazerac

[Durwyn]

Hmm very well then. However I dont even remember making racial remarks in the Criminals post. BTW The criminal post actually got nuked because of 250s behavior.

hehe see? Again people saying things wihtout knowing some major facts. That was actually the whole point of this argument between me and Thoran, saying things without any experience of what it really is.

Very well then, I shall step off, I'm sorry if someone finds it offensive, but truth always hurts after all...

P.S. I'm talking about mainly New York Russian-Jews, I've had a lot of experiences with particulary those people from those places. Another fact to let you know that I did not diss your friend Saz, is that I said MOST or Russian-Jews, not all. After all there is always something good deep inside us.

Cheers,

[Thoran]

"Stone Deaf"

[Sazerac]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Durwyn:
Hmm very well then. However I dont even remember making racial remarks in the Criminals post. BTW The criminal post actually got nuked because of 250s behavior.

hehe see? Again people saying things wihtout knowing some major facts. That was actually the whole point of this argument between me and Thoran, saying things without any experience of what it really is.

Very well then, I shall step off, I'm sorry if someone finds it offensive, but truth always hurts after all...

P.S. I'm talking about mainly New York Russian-Jews, I've had a lot of experiences with particulary those people from those places. Another fact to let you know that I did not diss your friend Saz, is that I said MOST or Russian-Jews, not all. After all there is always something good deep inside us.

Cheers,

---

It wasn't the "Criminals" post I was referring to, actually. I am looking further into that right now, BTW. That was locked down, not deleted.

It was the original post about the Americans that Scronan was asking about that I was referring to...apparently it got deleted, and no one knows why. I assume some stuff got out of hand in there.

As I said, I am sure that what you are relating "truth" to you given your experiences...that does ring very true, and I'm sorry you and your mom have had to go through that. I've never been to New York (although I do want to go one day), so I can't say "yae" or "nae" on what you've recounted. Until I know for sure, I'd rather err on the side of the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, whether you intended them to be or not, your comments do come across as hurtful to some, so I would ask that we table this discussion now and move on to a more pleasant topic.

Cheers,
-Sazerac

[fable]

Besides the Russian you meet since you're also in NY are Jewsish-Russian, there are not considered "Russian" in Russia, they are simply considered Jewish people. One reason is because alot and I tell you A LOT of those Jewish Russian are very bad people, almost all of them.

Durwyn, simply put, this is (im)pure bigotry--unless, of course, you happen to know millions of displaced Jewish Russians. Because there are that many. And somehow, I don't think meeting even one-one-hundredth of those people has counted as high in your list of lifetime priorities.

And Thoran, yet again, you think my post in that thread was predjudice or offensive? You never been where I've been, so dont say I'm prejudice. You live close, come down to Brooklyn see what its like living in a place ran by immigrants... I cant even explain it, you'll just have to experience to believe me. Its all in experience my friend.

I've been to "Little Odessa" in Brooklyn repeatedly with my wife. I've seen Eastern Orthodox, Jewish, and Islamic immigrants buying, selling, arguing, playing, and enjoying the sunlight. What a horror it must be for you, having to put up with filthy immigrants, instead of pure people, like yourself! How foolish of me to enjoy the filthy immigrants, and the community they set up after dissing Brezhnev and leaving.

It disgusts the Russian. In Russian if you're "Russian" you are Chiristian-Orthodox...

Wrong. Many Russians would still say that the Eastern Orthodox Church is pure escapism, another group of power brokers like the Soviet aparachiks. The fact that a lot of Russians still maintain a "fashionable" (and I say that with full irony) prejudice against Jews doesn't mean they look to Patriarch Aleksej II for leadership, or the Philokalia for daily teachings.

On another note, I find your statement personally insulting. My antecedents were both Ukrainian Orthodox Church and Jewish Ukrainians; they were poor, honest folk on both sides of the family, who fled a few years after the October Revolution. They brought up their kids as well as they could in a foreign land, worked hard, and lived the life of the dignified poor. All of both families that remained in the Ukraine were killed between Hitler and Stalin--except one Jew, who was deported in slave labor to Germany. She was never heard from, again.

You didn't know them. You have no business passing judgement on them, or in fact, on anybody else you don't know personally. Don't like the business practices of some Russian Jews of your acquaintance? Fine. But generalizing from that to include millions of people is as ridiculous as anything I've heard--and as sad.

And for the record, I'd be disgusted if this kind of broad attack was leveled at any group--in fact, I *have* defended numerous groups before from just this kind of mindless sleaze. The Jewish religion I dislike intensely--the Old Testament leaves me with a case of the shivers at what I perceive to be its obsessive/compulsive bully-god--but I'll defend anybody, anytime, against attacks of this sort.

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Durwyn]

Yet again fable, why did you have give the track another spin?

Enough is enough man, you dont know anything about the Russian-Jews I speak of, and yet you defend them. Just lay off man. I'm not refering to your decedants. You havent even fully read all of my replies which explained many of the remarks you've said. I'm not talking about American Jews, I'm talking about Russian-Jews for christ sake fable. You dont know what those people are, they are not like the people that were ones shipped to Germany or other European countries for slavery. They are cheap, sneaky, dirty people. And I will hold my fact, for I know that every Russian Jew I'vet met in NY has just been that, and only that. Believe what you want, think what you want. But I will hold my thought for I have enough facts to support it.

Now lets end this shall we? This is really getting annoying.

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Durwyn ]

[fable]

On the contrary, I *am* talking about Russian Jews who have emigrated to NYC, just as you are; and I *am* taking strong exception to both the accuracy of your remarks, and your tone. I have relatives and acquaintances whose personal integrity I can and will attest to in print. You have at best a sweeping statement of cultural slander at your disposal.

IMO, you lose.

[Thoran]

fable don't waste your breath... our friend here has a terminal case of "don't know when I've been beatenitis"

Inevitably he'll resort to the usual mechanisms of the badly beaten...

fabrication of unsubstantiated data...
"99% of Russian Jews go to Brooklyn/Brighton Beach" - sure I believe that. I'd hazard a guess that the VAST majority of Russian Jews who leave Russia got to ISRAEL.

avoid the central issues...he's already doing that. - Not one word of his last post addressed the central issue that he is a prejudiced bigot.

evade and try to redirect...he's already doing that. - "Its like having a lawyer that knows your guilty and doesnt do his job well. Makes no sence..." - well my friend that's the basis of the american judicial system, there are lawyers who defend guys they KNOW are guilty... and if they're good lawyers they do their best... even for a horrible crime. The fact that I disagree with your opinion has no impact on my belief that you should be free to have that opinion... or the fact that I defended your right to have that opinion... its right in the post... black and white.

attempt to discredit that opposing view - yup... got that - "step off the topic if you dont have any experiences to back up the words " - weak attempt but there it is, like his experiences with the vast hordes of Jewish Russians in a resteraunt qualifies HIM any more than it qualifies me to make prejudiced denunciations.

if you can't rebut... avoid at all costs -
"I on the other hand have not met ANY Jewish Russians... but of course I'm not the one judging them, so I don't really need to know them to say that stereotyping them is wrong do I?"
rebuttal - "..." - nada... zip... zilch

revisionist history...
"A LOT of those Jewish Russian are very bad people, almost all of them"
"If you would have read my post closely you would have noted that I said "MOST" of Russian-Jews"

state opinioin as fact... "trust me I have facts"

His argument is based solely on evasion and abstraction, he's been done wrong by a Jewish Russian or even several... and has transferred those negative feelings to an entire people. Hitler would be proud.

and no Durwyn I'm not angry... I feel sorry for anyone who lives with such hate, in the end you hurt yourself much more than anyone else.

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Memnoch]

Just wanted to post some thoughts on this thread. We call them "Ironworks Mantras".

• I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others.

• Debating at Ironworks is not as much about winning or losing as about expressing a point of view and listening to another person expressing theirs. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree when the argument starts to go nowhere. Please respect this policy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

• Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view.

I know most of you love a good spirited debate, since most of you are quite strongly opinionated, if somewhat tactless about expressing opinions, serenely confident in your righteousness and in the other's wrongness. This is not a problem unless you start making snide remarks about each other which don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, as this usually leads to shouting profanities at each other, which then becomes a problem. However, I'm sure will not happen, given that we're all VERY good at exercising self-control, right?

Just remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean you have lost the argument.