Showdown at IWD Corral: Slings Vs. Darts

[NobleNick]

To any who might be interested,

Below are the results of an experiment to confirm (or debunk) my belief that Darts are a worse weapon than the sling for a warrior, making them THE worst ranged weapon in the game.

Ground rules:
1.) Explore the space of early-journeyman to advanced Fighter, to cover the reasonable range of Fighter/Druid/Cleric mixes that would be constrained to NOT use Bow.
2.) Assume HoW/TotLM is installed.
3.) Assume characters built to party in IWD and HoW.
4.) CLVL 1 to 5 = "Beginner;" 6 to 11 = "Journeyman" and 12+ = "Advanced"
5.) Analysis based on characters optimized for combat performance, not role-play considerations.
6.) Fights are conducted as 3 separate 1 vs. 1 fights amongst a party of 6. No teaming.
7.) Experiments are a length of 18 separate fights-to-the-death, unless very lop-sided outcomes allow safe termination at 9 fights. Very close outcomes may require 36 fights.
8.) Assume unenchanted ammo; but slingers have access to a +1 sling.


Based on these considerations, I rolled a human male Fighter and a female human Fighter, used DaleKeeper to tune their stats to 19 18 18 9 9 9; and used import/export to clone them. Then I leveled them to CLVL 7, which earned them a total of 6 PP, 3 of which I placed in missile weapons. DaleKeeper was again used to equip all Fighters identically, to approximate a venerable but not-too-tough opponent. I intended this build to represent the lowest level Fighter that I would even consider DCing to any other class.

An "S" or a "D" below shows who won each fight; and the +XX shows how many HP were left on the winning Fighter. The weapon damage numbers that follow the fight results show the extrapolated formula for weapon damage for that series of fights:

------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL = 7; 98 HP; AC = -3 vs. Miss.; STR = 19; 3 PP Miss.;
THAC0 = 9(D) and S+1); ApR = 4(D) and 2(S+1).

|__ 1.) S +37 __|__ 4.) S +76 __|__ 7.) S +50 __|
|__ 2.) S +43 __|__ 5.) S +53 __|__ 8.) S +39 __|
|__ 3.) S +60 __|__ 6.) S +68 __|__ 9.) S +44 __|

D = 1D3 + 3
S = 1D4 + 12

D wins 0/9; Avg. match = S +52.2
Total Damage: D = 412; S = 882 --> S = 214% of D
------------------------------------------------------------

Whoa! that is a lot of sling damage! The Slingers won every fight and had an average of 52.2 HP at the end of combat. I terminated this experiment at 9 Fights, since the slingers were dishing out over twice the damage of the Dartists.

Acck. and what is this? I forgot that darts used up weapon slots instead of ammo slots. Not an endearing characteristic. And you only get 20 darts per slot, as opposed to 40 bullets or arrows.

I had made STR=19 in order to easily get it the same for all Fighters. Was this skewing the outcome, above? I modified all Fighters to STR = 18/50, which is the normal median for a STR=18 human Fighter:

------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL = 7; 98 HP; AC = -3 vs. Miss.; STR = 18/50; 5 PP Miss.;
THAC0 = 9(D) and S+1); ApR = 4(D) and 2(S+1).

|__ 1.) S +12 __|__ 7.) S +08 __|_ 13.) D +37 __|
|__ 2.) S +09 __|__ 8.) S +05 __|_ 14.) S +12 __|
|__ 3.) D +12 __|__ 9.) S +54 __|_ 15.) S +52 __|
|__ 4.) D +05 __|_ 10.) S +10 __|_ 16.) S +23 __|
|__ 5.) D +09 __|_ 11.) S +01 __|_ 17.) S +32 __|
|__ 6.) S +41 __|_ 12.) S +19 __|_ 18.) S +09 __|

D = 1D3 + 3
S = 1D4 + 8

D wins 4/18; Avg. match = S +12.4
Total Damage: D = 1477; S = 1701 --> S = 115% of D
------------------------------------------------------------

This is more interesting. The difference between STR = 19 and STR = 18/50 is 4 damage per successful Sling hit; but there is no effect on Dart damage. The normal journeyman Slingers are dishing out 15% more damage than the normal journeyman Dartists.

I noticed that Critical Hits were not getting the damage bonus usually seen in the wild; so had everyone take off helmets, to more realistically model enemies in the adventuring world:

------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL = 7; 98 HP; AC = -3 vs. Miss.; STR = 18/50; 5 PP Miss.;
THAC0 = 9(D) and S+1); ApR = 4(D) and 2(S+1).; NO HELM

|__ 1.) D +12 __|_ 13.) S +10 __|_ 25.) D +15 __|
|__ 2.) D +02 __|_ 14.) D +02 __|_ 26.) S +33 __|
|__ 3.) S +55 __|_ 15.) D +02 __|_ 27.) D +28 __|
|__ 4.) S +35 __|_ 16.) D +05 __|_ 28.) S +06 __|
|__ 5.) S +04 __|_ 17.) S +22 __|_ 29.) S +43 __|
|__ 6.) D +23 __|_ 18.) S +05 __|_ 30.) S +03 __|
|__ 7.) S +32 __|_ 19.) D +09 __|_ 31.) D +03 __|
|__ 8.) D +78 __|_ 20.) D +37 __|_ 32.) D +03 __|
|__ 9.) S +54 __|_ 21.) S +31 __|_ 33.) D +25 __|
|_ 10.) D +07 __|_ 22.) D +29 __|_ 34.) S +46 __|
|_ 11.) S +33 __|_ 23.) D +28 __|_ 35.) S +15 __|
|_ 12.) D +25 __|_ 24.) S +24 __|_ 36.) S +07 __|

D = 1D3 + 3
S = 1D4 + 8

D wins 18/36; Avg. match = S +12.4
Total Damage: D = 2954; S = 3402 --> S = 115% of D
------------------------------------------------------------

Woo Hoo! the Dartists won half the battles! ... But it appears that this is just a fluke of how the damage was distributed: the Slingers still dished out 15% more damage than the Dartists, exactly as it was with the helmets on; and the matches which the Slingers did win, they won with an average of 12.4 more HP than the Dartists had when they won.

In the midst of all this fun, I took a moment to explore where all those extra sling damage points were coming from:

------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL = 7; 98 HP; AC = -3 vs. Miss.; STR = see below; 3 PP Miss.;
THAC0 = 9(S) and S+1); ApR = 2(S) and 2(S+1).

No individual fight records kept. Verified that Sling+1 (S+1) damage
bonus adds; and that STR bonus adds:

For STR = 17 and Sling -------> Dmg. = 1D4 + 5
For STR = 17 and Sling+1 -----> Dmg. = 1D4 + 6
For STR = 17, S+1 & Bullet+1 -> Dmg. = 1D4 + 7
For STR = 18/50 and Sling ----> Dmg. = 1D4 + 7
For STR = 18/50 and Sling+1 --> Dmg. = 1D4 + 8
For STR = 18/50, S+1 & B+1 ---> Dmg. = 1D4 + 9 (Expected. Not verified)
For STR = 19 and Sling -------> Dmg. = 1D4 + 11 (Expected. Not verified)
For STR = 19 and Sling+1 -----> Dmg. = 1D4 + 12
For STR = 19, S+1 & B+1 ------> Dmg. = 1D4 + 13 (Expected. Not verified)
------------------------------------------------------------

So, the sling+1 bonus does add to damage, in addition to affecting THAC0. Also STR is definitely affecting damage.

O.K., on to advanced Fighters. This time to F(13), which is the highest CLVL that I think anyone would DC out of Fighter. I assumed that the extra PP would be put in a melee weapon, so kept 3 PP in Sling. AC is -13 vs. missile, to approximate a very tough opponent:

------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL = 13; 138 HP; AC = -13 vs. M.; STR = 18/50; 3 PP Miss.;
THAC0 = 3(D) and 2(S+1); ApR = 4.5(D) and 2.5(S+1).

|__ 1.) S +59 __|__ 4.) S +58 __|__ 7.) S +29 __|
|__ 2.) S +12 __|__ 5.) S +45 __|__ 8.) S +56 __|
|__ 3.) S +54 __|__ 6.) S +32 __|__ 9.) S +46 __|

D = 1D3 + 3
S = 1D4 + 8

D wins 0/9; Avg. match = S +43.4
Total Damage: D = 851; S = 1242 --> S = 146% of D
------------------------------------------------------------

Boring. The slingers are once again cleaning house.

Try again, letting all Fighters go to 5 PP in Missiles:

------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL = 13; 138 HP; AC = -13 vs. M.; STR = 18/50; 5 PP Miss.;
THAC0 = 1(D) and 0(S+1); ApR = 5(D) and 3.5(S+1).

|__ 1.) S +82 __|__ 4.) S +47 __|__ 7.) S +51 __|
|__ 2.) S +98 __|__ 5.) S +40 __|__ 8.) S +88 __|
|__ 3.) S +77 __|__ 6.) S +10 __|__ 9.) S +41 __|

D = 1D3 + 05 (Expected value. I did not verify.)
S = 1D4 + 10 (Expected value. I did not verify.)

D wins 0/9; Avg. match = S +59.3
Total Damage: D = 708; S = 1242 --> S = 175% of D
------------------------------------------------------------

Ouch! Even worse for the Dartists. And at this point another interesting fact cropped up: Dartists can go through an amazing amount of ammo: At 5 darts per round and only 20 darts allowed per weapon slot, a dartist can clean out a weapon slot in only four rounds! Only two (2) rounds when hasted!! An expert slinger takes a more modest 11-1/2 rounds to go through her 40 bullets. With the relative rarity of Darts and the high number of slots needed to pack the stuff around, relying on darts for a ranged weapon introduces a logistical problem.

Conclusions:
1.) STR affects Sling damage, but not Dart damage.
2.) Sling +1 bonus adds 1 to damage. (Expect that +X bonus adds +X to damage.)
3.) For reasonable Fighter mixes that have been constructed to maximize combat effectiveness against medium to tough opponents: Slings are modestly to amazingly more lethal than Darts.
4.) Ammo supply and transport can be a significant logistical problem for Dartists.
5.) Darts and Slings are both missile weapons. (I didn't realized they were classed together.)
6.) Darts get 2 bonus ApR over Slings.
7.) 5 PP can be stacked in missile weapons (I thought the limit was 3); but only 0.5 ApR (not 1 ApR) is gained for Darts at 5 PP, because of the 5 ApR ceiling.

Philosophy:
It is assumed that the power gamer attempting to do IWD/HoW will only consider Darts for those characters constrained to NOT use Bows as their primary ranged weapon. These classes are: MC/DC Clerics; MC/DC Druids; and SC Mages. The Druid mixes have Sling available; and per the research above, should choose it over Darts. The Cleric mixes can not use Darts. The SC Mage would never be built by the experienced powergamer (except when such gamer was introducing roleplay considerations into the decision making): For 64K XP this character can be a DC F(7)/Mage with 98+ HP, and 6 PP stackable to 4 high in melee or 3 high in Bow. (This character could stack 4/3 in Missile/Bow, making herself a ranged expert... and leaving herself devoid of stacks in melee proficiencies: Not a build that appeals to me, but possibly a viable power build.)

There is only one viable powergamer build that can not use Bow, can use Darts and also can not get to 3 PP in Missile: MC F/D. This build CAN get to 2 PP in missile weapons. I should have researched this, to make the analysis complete; but this analysis is already quite long, and I have temporarily run out of interest. My expectation (not verified) is that the F/D would theoretically do better at Darts as beginner; but would find Slings to be a better choice in the mid to late game (CLVL 7+) as enchanted slings became available, enchanted ammo becomes more plentiful, and opponent AC gets much lower. (Going up against a Remorhaz (sp?) or the myriad of other tough opponents one meets in the expansions, armed only with darts, is not my idea of having fun; and seems odd even from a role play perspective.)

Final conclusion: With the caveat that the build in the paragraph above has not been verified: Friends don't let friends do Darts. (Or maybe I should say, "Powergamers don't let their powergamer friends do Darts.")

EDIT: Cleaned up the above based on research that shows Clerics don't do Darts.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 06-08-2005, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Azred]

My goodness, NobleNick! In which scientific journal will we find the final published results? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think it is safe to say that darts are for the occassional whim, but not anything to carry around unless you just need something else to sell.

Of course, this means that evil mod creators will have to create a monster that may be damaged only by darts... [img]graemlins/firedevil.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[Marty4]

Wow, Nick. Great job and thanks for sharing your findings! I think the first (and only) time that I have ever used darts is with Jaheira in BG1, and only because she started off with them. After using them up to literally no effect, I dumped them forever [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Darts only really come into play when you use poisoned ones. Their main benefit is the base 3 ApR they get.

[Aerich]

Good job, Nick. I have to admit I am far too lazy to have even contemplated doing this. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Good to find out.

Non-magical darts aren't really worth using, apparently. The status effect darts can be nice, though. Not that I use them much, personally - I usually just sell them.

What about range? I have a vague recollection of giving a tank some proficiency in darts, and having him walk up almost to melee range before letting fly.

[NobleNick]

Thanks guys,

This study was prompted by a challenge to my comment in a separate thread, wherein I labeled darts as the worst ranged weapon in IWD. When challenged on my statement, I realized that I didn't know that darts were the most wretched weapon, just thought they were by reading their stats: I didn't have in-game experience.

To be fair to my challenger, the darts did a lot better than I expected (I had forgotten about the extra ApRs); but not good enough to move them out of bottom slot.

Now we know.

EDIT: For a NON-powergamer, the Darts probably are the *BEST* weapon for the SC Mage with STR=15 or lower: better than sling. BUT.... [img]graemlins/1puke.gif[/img] Ptooey!! [img]graemlins/1puke.gif[/img] That is what I think of your scrawny-role-playing-Single-Classed-geek-character!

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 06-09-2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Krowlars]

I have followed your posts for some time NobleNick, and I must say that this last one is as impressive as many others you did. I wish I had the same patience to study the rules so deeply.

As much as you, I always just thought that darts were not worthy to fight with. I would rather use crossbows and slings, most of the times. The only advantage I see, regarding darts, is the everlasting dart you may find in Icewind Dale 2; usefull when you have no money to buy good arrows, etc.

Best regards!

[ZFR]

In one thing you are wrong NobleNick.
STR in no way affects damage neither of slings nor darts.
(note that DEX affects only THACO for both. It doesnt affect damage either).
You can verify this easily. Have two exactly same fighters but only strength diferent attack two exactly same targets with exactly same slings.

And one more aspect.
Althou using +1 sling with normal bullets gives +1 thaco and damage, it cannot be used to damage monsters which require magical weapons (since it's the bullets which do the damage). Using +1 darts can damage such monsters.

Also...
With slings the bonus of sling and bullet stack (same as with bows/crossbows). So its much much easier to get bonuses with slings than darts. Using +3 sling and +3 bullets gives a bonus of +6 to both damage and thaco. This effect is impossible to achieve with darts (there are no +6 darts).

One more thing, the ApR of slings comes in real handy when attacking mages.

EDIT:
I justs re-read your post and saw how you verified the damage.
hmmm... that's strange. I verified in BG1 and BG2 and in both STR doesnt affect damage of any ranged weapon.
And the IWD manual also says that.

When I come home I'll verify how it was implemented in-game. If it indeed does, it's a bug.

[ 06-09-2005, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: ZFR ]

[ister]

Well the thing I didn't realize is that strength affects sling damage and not dart damage. (I think BG is different on that front). This clearly makes slings a better choice for anyone with exceptional strngth (and if you're powergaming it's hard to see why you wouldn't have exceptional strength). I did say that darts present very serious logistical problems, and I'm glad to see you've observed that I wasn't joking!

>There is only one viable powergamer build that can not use Bow,
>can use Darts and also can not get to 3 PP in Missile: MC F/D.
>This build CAN get to 2 PP in missile weapons. I should have
>researched this, to make the analysis complete; but this analysis
>is already quite long, and I have temporarily run out of interest.
>My expectation (not verified) is that the F/D would
>theoretically do better at Darts as beginner; but would find
>Slings to be a better choice in the mid to late game (CLVL 7+)
>as enchanted slings became available, enchanted ammo becomes
>more plentiful, and opponent AC gets much lower.

I think the real issue with why the advantage goes to slings at higher levels is simple APR. A low level fighter gets 1.5 attacks with a sling, 3.5 with a dart. That ratio of 2 1/3 means the dart can easily overcome the greater damage from the sling - even with decent strength. Add 1/2 an APR and that ratio goes from 2 1/3 to 2, and I think that's where the darts won't stand a chance.

I'd still argue that darts are better for an SC druid or mage. Such a character can't have exceptional strength and can't stack proficiency points. Therefore 3 attacks per round at 1-3 damage will cream 1 attack at 2-5. Pure powergamers are unlikely to choose to play such characters, but if they are going to DC them later on darts are definitely a better choice.

I'd also suggest that early on any pre-DC druid or cleric should consider darts and only switch to slings as magical slings and ammo become available. (Definitely before level 7 as your results show).

>Woo Hoo! the Dartists won half the battles! ... But it appears
>that this is just a fluke of how the damage was distributed:
>the Slingers still dished out 15% more damage than the Dartists,
>exactly as it was with the helmets on; and the matches which
>the Slingers did win, they won with an average of 12.4 more HP
>than the Dartists had when they won.

I don't think this is a fluke. It is inevitable that the slingers will "waste" more damage, as they do it in 12 point chunks rather than the 5 point chunks of the darts. Basically dart damage is steady and predictable, sling damage is more erratic. Everythign else being equal, in battles that you expect to lose you'd rather have luck play a bigger factor (i.e., choose the sling) in battles that you expect to win you'd prefer luck to matter less (chhose the darts).

Overall it's an impressive test. I'm surprised the darts did so well now that I know that slings DO add strength damage. I'm a bit surprised you bothered with the level 13 test after seeing the results of the level 7 test - if slings are even close to parity at level 7 common sense and APR tell you they will be dominant at level 13. A level 1 test would be more interesting to me - should powergamers use darts and switch to slings later (as I suggest)? It would also be interesting to test what's better for the roleplayer who has a character that only stacks one point in missile weapons.

Anyway, as I've said before I agree that darts are pretty awful weapons. My point was always that slings are pretty dreadful too. And throwing daggers are significantly worse than both.

But I'll concede the point. In IWD slings are defintiely better than darts. I think I've let my BG experience colour my observations in IWD.

[ 06-09-2005, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: ister ]

[JrKASperov]

Originally posted by ZFR: When I come home I'll verify how it was implemented in-game. If it indeed does, it's a bug.

Actually I think STR should affect ALL throwable weapons, not only because it's so in DnD rules, and is logical (the harder you can throw, the harder it hits), but also to rebalance the throwable weapons. A bow in current BG/IWD always outshines other ranged weapons.