15 British Marines taken by force by Iran's Navy

[wellard]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: 1) As always, both a mass civilian slaughter and the prospect of withdrawal from Iraq in the event of an un-repellable Iranian assault are political problems. I would hesitate to underestimate the sheer power gap between the UK/US and Iran, were political considerations to be removed.

The fact that the coalition have ground forces in Iraq is both a disgrace and a problem worth considering Shamrock. I agree with you on the the power gap. While it may be nowhere near the shock and guffaw that was the Iraq invasion (I and II) to destroy Irans Military/ Navy/ docks/ airports - both civilian and military- from a distance with no intent of sending in one soldier would not be a problem for a combined coalition already in the area.

[PurpleXVI]

Actually, the US did some war games where their entire surface navy got crippled, I seem to recall they lost at least one carrier to just a massive swarm of low-tech ships, inflateable boats and cessnas.

I'm not even talking missiles, here, but consider that the US fleet got wrecked without missiles, and the Iranians have both what the opposing side used in the war games AND some level of modern tech.

As for Iran being unable to strike at home US and UK holdings? Er, they have connections to terrorist groups. Don't forget the London underground bombings and 9/11, saying they can't strike at your homelands if you piss them off too bad, I think that would be a very, very foolish miscalculation. Your home soil is not impregnable.

There's also the fact that if the US or UK use any sort of "from miles away" attack with rocket or nuclear bombardment, they'll become even more international pariahs than they already are. It'd win the battle, but lose the war for centuries to come.

[shamrock_uk]

Well, Iran/Hezbollah had no links to either 9/11 or the London bombings, so I'm not sure they can just order a bombing here or there.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the bombers all been Sunni Muslims, who regard Shia Muslims as being almost infidels? The prospects of them working together are fairly slim.

You're right to say that we're not impregnable, but also the damage done has to be put into context.

Every five days in the UK, the same number of people as those that died in the London bombings are killed in car crashes. Whilst there is a threat, we also have to acknowledge that such attacks are both rare and are in no danger of destroying our way of life in the same way that a more traditional attack/invasion would have. If we forget this, we risk the overreaction (like shutting down a city entirely) causing far more damage/disruption than the attack itself ever did.

[shamrock_uk]

Ooh, back on topic, tons more information here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6502947.stm

Describing both the negotiations to date and details of the exact circumstances.

British apply 'ridicule' tactic By Paul Reynolds World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website By revealing the evidence backing up its claim that British naval personnel held by Iran did not violate Iranian waters, the British government is trying to put the Iranian government on the defensive. And by revealing that Iran changed its own claim about where the incident took place, the British are also trying to ridicule the Iranian position. The British decision to go public with what they had previously presented to the Iranians in private came after the 15 captured sailors and marines remained in Iranian captivity. British diplomats based in Tehran have been denied a consular visit so far. However, Britain has been assured that the prisoners are well. In addition, Britain is to freeze contacts with Iran to this single issue. The first tactic was to offer Iran an easy way out. The Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett gave the co-ordinates of the British sailors to the Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki and suggested that there might have been a "mistake". Iranian switch Iran at first offered a different co-ordinate and then, when it was pointed out that even this was in Iraqi waters, another reading was given, this time on the Iranian side. quote: UK VERSION OF EVENTS 1 Crew boards merchant ship 1.7NM inside Iraqi waters 2 HMS Cornwall was south-east of this, and inside Iraqi waters 3 Iran tells UK that merchant ship was at a different point, still within Iraqi waters 4 After UK points this out, Iran provides corrected position, now within Iranian waters

However the initial quiet and discreet effort led nowhere, so a decision to escalate the issue was taken.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair told the House of Commons on Wednesday that it was "now time to ratchet up the diplomatic and international pressure" to show the Iranians that they were isolated.

Mr Blair has worked in particular through the Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and is marshalling support from the EU, allies in the Gulf, the UN security council and from Iraq itself.

The United States is adopting a relatively quiet attitude, perhaps by agreement with London that a strong US position against Iran might not help.

GPS reading

The British evidence was based on a GPS read-out of the position where an Indian merchant ship was boarded by a British inspection party on Friday.

At a briefing for reporters at the Ministry of Defence in London, a quietly-spoken but precise Vice Admiral Charles Style, Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, gave the co-ordinates, saying that the incident took place 1.7 nautical miles (3.14 kilometres) inside Iraqi waters.

The British coordinates were given as 29' 50.36" North and 048' 43.08" East. (Note: the reading on the photo at the top, taken from a helicopter over the ship still at anchor two days afterwards, is slightly different as the ship's captain said the anchor had dragged since the incident).

The coordinates given by Iran to the British were not detailed.

The admiral and a senior military officer, who spoke on the background afterwards, insisted that the British were in the right, as they were acting under Security Council resolution 1723 (which authorises the multinational force in Iraq) and with the approval of the Iraqi government in protecting its oil facilities, coast and shipping. There was no doubt where the dividing line was, it was said, despite historic disputes between Iran and Iraq over these waters.

Details given in the briefing indicate that the Iranian action was at least deliberate, though who ordered it is not known.


Outgunned

The officer at the Ministry of Defence justified the lack of reaction by the British personnel. Their rules of engagement, he said, were adequate for self defence but they were taken by surprise as they left the ship they had inspected.

Two Iranian boats with far heavier weapons - rocket launchers and heavy machine guns against rifles and pistols - came alongside after indicating a friendly attitude.

Communications were lost immediately and then the two British boats were escorted by the Iranians and about four other Iranian boats "swarmed" in.


Some gaps in British preparations were evident from what the officer said. A Lynx helicopter monitoring the boarding had returned to the mother ship HMS Cornwall, which could not get nearer because of shallow water, and by the time the Cornwall realised what has happening, the British were on the Iranian side.

Iranian boats had about "three minutes" according to the officer in which they made their approach, but nobody on the British side saw them.

Mr Blair said the attitude of the British personnel had been "entirely sensible". If they had fired , there would "undoubtedly have been severe loss of life".

Iranian attitudes

The Iranian reaction to this escalation remains to be seen. Under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran has not been afraid of confrontation. It is currently defying the UN Security Council on uranium enrichment and is under sanctions that were increased only last Saturday.

Mrs Beckett said that Iran had assured her that there was no linkage to other events, including presumably the detention of five Iranian officials by American forces in Iraq not long ago. Iran was saying that its territorial waters had been violated.

Iran, however, is concerned at threats of military action against it and might be wanting to show the readiness of its forces, especially the Revolutionary Guards which carried out this operation.

The British hope that Iran will now decide that it has made its point and let the personnel go. But that would require something of a climb-down by Iran which has claimed the right in this dispute.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/6502947.stm

Published: 2007/03/28 14:25:08 GMT

© BBC MMVII[/QUOTE]

[Memnoch]

I was reading some of the "letters" that were supposedly written as well as the "confessions and apologies" on TV - that was pretty pathetic stuff. As if anyone believes that those weren't coerced. But maybe they're for an internal Iranian audience than an external world one.

Another point - what do you think the US response would have been had it been US marines that had been taken?

[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by Memnoch: Another point - what do you think the US response would have been had it been US marines that had been taken?

Less talking? Or rather, more direct threatening?

[wellard]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad says 15 British naval personnel captured in the Gulf are free to leave.

He repeated Iran's view that the British sailors and marines "invaded" Iranian waters, but said they were being released as a "gift" to Britain.

He said they would be taken to Tehran airport and flown home within hours.

Downing Street welcomed news of the release, while Iranian state media said the British crew members "shouted for joy" on hearing the news.

[shamrock_uk]

Excellent news! Looks like it was probably best to negotiate, however frustrating it might be.

Story here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6525905.stm

A detailed analysis containing lots of other information can be found here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6526359.stm

Looks like Syria had a negotiating hand in it all...

[Ziroc]

"A gift" lol...

[Memnoch]

I think that the Iranians were looking to find a way to release these guys and still save face - they made their point, if they'd kept them any longer public opinion in the Muslim world would have gone against them.