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Old 09-11-2001, 04:53 PM   #51
anomie
Elite Waterdeep Guard
 

Join Date: September 8, 2001
Location: Yellow Springs, OH
Posts: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch:

I am starting this thread as a discussion thread for all of us to try and make sense out of this (senseless) attack on America. I realize it's a very emotional subject but please, no flaming or racial/hate attacks on others in this thread, ok?

The question now has to be asked: why was this done? What were the perpetrators expecting to get out of this? What was the motivation behind their attack? There are a number of facts that I will outline for you:

..... The question is: why? What are the perpetrators trying to accomplish here? Who stands to benefit the most from this tragedy?

Your thoughts would be welcome as long as they are put forward in a reasonable, civilized and sensible manner.

Can't say it any better.


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Old 09-11-2001, 04:57 PM   #52
KHaN
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 21, 2001
Location: the not to distant future,
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
Are you seriously insinuating that this whole thing is some sort of plot by President Bush? The WTC were destroyed, the Pentagon was rather severely damaged, Camp David was almost destroyed. The financial and military nerve centers of this country were horribly damaged, the nation is going to be feeling this for years. We may potentially going to war. And you're saying what? That Bush is using this as some sort of excuse to take over the country?? Preposterous!

BTW...Bush was in Florida for a conference on Education. Something that has been planned for months. So he didn't 'just happen' to be there.
Camp David??? WHAT? When? Did that just happen? OMG! When will this end? What channel is the Camp David stuff on?



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Old 09-11-2001, 04:57 PM   #53
Sir Kenyth
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: August 30, 2001
Location: somewhere
Age: 47
Posts: 1,785
I just got out of the military and almost wish I hadn't. I originally joined active duty from reserves to go to the gulf war, this hits much closer to home than Kuwait. Looks like ol' Bush Jr. may get to follow in his fathers footsteps and declare war. I don't think there's a hole deep enough for Bin Laden to hide in if he's responsible. I don't know if Afghanistan will want this "Hot Potato" if he's found the culprit. If he's continued to be sheltered I'm sure it will mean war.
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:01 PM   #54
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
Banned User
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: ...
Posts: 694
Quote:
Originally posted by KHaN:
Camp David??? WHAT? When? Did that just happen? OMG! When will this end? What channel is the Camp David stuff on?

It didn't. Just another of the wild rumors flying around.

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Old 09-11-2001, 05:07 PM   #55
Moni
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
Are you seriously insinuating that this whole thing is some sort of plot by President Bush? The WTC were destroyed, the Pentagon was rather severely damaged, Camp David was almost destroyed. The financial and military nerve centers of this country were horribly damaged, the nation is going to be feeling this for years. We may potentially going to war. And you're saying what? That Bush is using this as some sort of excuse to take over the country?? Preposterous!

BTW...Bush was in Florida for a conference on Education. Something that has been planned for months. So he didn't 'just happen' to be there.
Camp David almost destroyed?! Where does that information come from?

If you would continue reading consecutive posts within threads and not just jump in to badmouth me you would see that I said I do not think that Bush himself orchestrated it. I did not say it is the reason for these attacks.

I don't believe the planning of these attacks today took place overnight in case you really think I am that stupid.

Study your politics and tell me that there have never been politicians above sacrificing their own for their benefit in the long run.

Tell me that you have proof that Desert Storm was not in any way a poiltically-based message sent to the American people by George Bush Sr. You would be fooling yourself to believe it.

I also said within this thread "I would like to end up knowing later on that I am completely wrong right now."

Did I say once that Bush is going to use this to take over the country?!
Please use your pocketchange to buy yourself a grip because you appear to have lost the one you showed up here with!

Read me for what I say, not for what you want it to mean and get off my back.
I don't give a crap if you are Cloudy's online boyfriend that gives you no right to put words in my mouth and twist what I say to fight with me.

Memnoch, I am sorry if what I am saying here can be called a flame and the words directed at me cannot.
I am tired of defending myself against people who refuse to understand that we don't all think alike, we don't all talk alike and that we are, as individuals allowed our opinions in this country so long as we do no others any harm with them. I am not attacking anyone here yet I am on the defensive at every turn with "friends" on this board.

I bend over backwards on a regular basis apologizing to (a certain group of) people here who get kicks out of twisting my words, putting words in my mouth and coming across like I am a hateful person and quite frankly I am tired of it.

THIS IS NOT THE DAY TO FIGHT WITH ME!

THIS IS NOT THE DAY TO FIGHT WITH ANYONE!

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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!
 
Old 09-11-2001, 05:16 PM   #56
Nachtrafe
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 45
Posts: 889
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:

Huh? That's news to me. Unless some new information has come to light, that was an erroneus report.
The fourth plane that was hijacked(the one that crashed south of Pittsburgh) was reported(CNN, FoxNews, and MSNBC) as being in a direct heading towards Camp David. Fortunately it crashed(or was forced or shot down) before it could get there. I guess I should have worded that better. I'm a bit distracted(at work)

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Old 09-11-2001, 05:19 PM   #57
MagiK
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They can't know if it was headed directly for camp david YOu do realize that DC is on a line with Pittsburgh and Camp David...the actuall location of camp david is secret.. Been in those mountains several times hiking and if you wander too close to the area, the Secret Service is there to show you were the hiking path is.

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Old 09-11-2001, 05:22 PM   #58
G'kar
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Posts: n/a
It is concievable that a hijacked commercial jet would be shot down, if it posed a big enough threat. The good of the many outweighs the good of a few.
 
Old 09-11-2001, 05:24 PM   #59
KHaN
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 21, 2001
Location: the not to distant future,
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
The fourth plane that was hijacked(the one that crashed south of Pittsburgh) was reported(CNN, FoxNews, and MSNBC) as being in a direct heading towards Camp David. Fortunately it crashed(or was forced or shot down) before it could get there. I guess I should have worded that better. I'm a bit distracted(at work)

So Camp David was almost destroyed because of this plane crashing AWAY from Camp David? LOL@Nachtrafe...now who's tossing around conspiracy theories?




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Old 09-11-2001, 05:29 PM   #60
Ryanamur
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir_Tainly:
Pilot training is no great issue here, essentially the bombers only had to take control of the plane at the last minute, the pilots could be forced to fly to a location under the impression they would not be killed if they complied, and then the terrorist could fly the plane into the building. Essentially piltoing is only difficult on take off / landing and in adverse conditions, flying in good weather into a building is a low order skill. Navigating however is trickier

I agree (I'm a pilot myself) anybody can fly a plane in calm conditions. Spend a few hours on MS-Flight Simulator on hard settings and that would give you the knowledge required. As far as navigating. Again, FS is the perfect training tool. It offers great scenery of the Downtown NY area. You can easily practice crashing into the WTO towers.

Now, if I'm not mistaking, some of those planes were coming from Newark... which would have put them on climb path. For those planes originating close to NY, I think that an experience pilot was on board flying the plane. Which leaves two scenarios open: 1- an accomplice pilot (because of the time factor involved) or 2- a highjack at Take-off (come in the cockpit, kill the pilots, take control of the plane).

Personnally, I don't believe that any non-accomplice pilots could've done this. You know that if you don't listen to a highjacker, you're dead... you know that if you crash into a building you, your passenger and countless of innocent people would die. So, if you're going to die, why not just slam the throttle to the dash in the last run and ditch the plane into the ocean (river or what ever it is that's beside Manhattan). The fact that they didn't do that lead me to the two scenarios outline previously. The pilots where either dead or one of them was an accomplice.

Another interesting fact is that all flights originated from the East coast going to the West Coast. That would make perfect sense. You get a plane with LOTS of gaz... slam the throttle to the dash right before impact and that would give you a much bigger explosion that a plane that's almost empty.

Now, as to the motif of these attack. There can be many: anything from anti-US demonstration, to proving that the US is not untoucheable, while passing to anti-WTO demonstration. The bottom line is that someone wanted to make a point and did one: piss the US off.

Now, what's gonna happen, hard to say. The logical way to respond would be for the US to go and attack a "perpertrator". However, at this time, there isn't much info as to who would have done it. For the US to appear strong, some might suggest an attack within the next 48-72 hours. Most likely, this kind of retaliation would be blind.

My personnal opinion as to what Mr. Bush should do: commit. They (terrorist organisations) commited an act of war towards the US. IMO, the US should be entitled to a counter attack. I don't think that you should target only the perpetrators. Go after ALL terrorists organisation. The US government has a good idea as to where to find the bad guys. Take them all out. Send a message: "You have F***** up and we will gladly remove you from the face of this earth." When I say "remove", I mean remove! Use a couple 5-10 cruise missiles per target. Nice and swift. Don't waste your time targeting one group, take them all out. Do one tomorrow, 3 more in 5 days, 50 other in 6 months and 2 the next day. This is guerrilla, you fight quick, you fight strong and you fight when the other doesn't want you to fight.

Make it simple, you have anything to do with terrorism, you will suffer the consequences. Americans and Western nations have to think in Black and White to combat terrorism. That's not the way we are thinking. To blindly say that this is a cowardly act is showing that you don't understand your ennemy. To them, there's no grey... there's only black and white. They like it thought when you think in grey... that's what allows them to strike.


I know, I'm harsh... but I'm damn effective.
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