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Old 09-11-2001, 07:24 PM   #141
Ryanamur
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Quote:
Originally posted by Encard:
How about surrounding the place, bombing, and then sending in troops right away to clean up?

Nice plan. What if they're in the mountains. They're waiting for the attack. Tomahaks blow the place up. US forces move in and then, the terrorist attack their own camp... no, bad timming.

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Old 09-11-2001, 07:27 PM   #142
Gabriel
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Bombing and killing them WILL NOT WORK, sure it will make everyone feel better (Not them of course) but those dead will become martyas to the cause and more will join because of it. The only way I see to destory them is destory their idolilogy, but how do you do somehting like that?
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Old 09-11-2001, 07:31 PM   #143
Ryanamur
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel:
The only way I see to destory them is destory their idolilogy, but how do you do somehting like that?
I thought I answered that one... The only way to destroy terrorism or the cause is to kill them ALL, not just the terrorist but also the populace (which will never happen).

Sending troops in will only remove the current bad elements. If you remove them, that means that other unknown elements will take their place. I would rather have a known terrorist to deal with than an unknown one. At least I know where the treat is and what it is.



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Old 09-11-2001, 07:34 PM   #144
Cloudbringer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moni:




Read me for what I say, not for what you want it to mean and get off my back.
I don't give a crap if you are Cloudy's online boyfriend that gives you no right to put words in my mouth and twist what I say to fight with me.


What the ? Moni, I don't know what that is supposed to mean and frankly it is just mean and uncalled for! It has no bearing on this discussion.

I understand that you may be feeling distraught, it is a very sad and upsetting day for all of us! In light of that, I will just assume things I see here are not carefully thought out. Still that was unpleasant to see and I'm sorry you were unhappy enough to post it.

Cloudy



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Old 09-11-2001, 07:35 PM   #145
Pangur Ban
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This is a tragedy that will change the world.

I've always felt that one of the biggest faults that humans have is that we (almost) always believe that our own viewpoints and beliefs are superior to those of others. While others are shocked by what has happened, there are others who are celebrating. I can't look into their minds and think like they do ( nor do I ever want to ) but they hold their beliefs just as strongly as I hold my own.

Retaliation? Punishment? Revenge? These concepts are too easily tangled up with morals and ethics.

However much it saddens me to say it, the "rules", if any, are set by those who *first* start the action - I believe that it is sometimes necessary to kill not because we *want* to, but because we *have* to. Is there anyone of us who feels at ease to live in a world with whoever arranged this tragedy?

Pangur Ban.


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Old 09-11-2001, 07:46 PM   #146
Gabriel
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
I thought I answered that one... The only way to destroy terrorism or the cause is to kill them ALL, not just the terrorist but also the populace (which will never happen).

Sending troops in will only remove the current bad elements. If you remove them, that means that other unknown elements will take their place. I would rather have a known terrorist to deal with than an unknown one. At least I know where the treat is and what it is.

You say you know it the wrong ideal but still talk of doing it with others? That I'm confused here time to leave the thread.
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Old 09-11-2001, 08:09 PM   #147
Lord Shield
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
I thought I answered that one... The only way to destroy terrorism or the cause is to kill them ALL, not just the terrorist but also the populace (which will never happen).

Sending troops in will only remove the current bad elements. If you remove them, that means that other unknown elements will take their place. I would rather have a known terrorist to deal with than an unknown one. At least I know where the treat is and what it is.

Unfortunately that wold inflame the attacks of OTHER formerly-passive groupd - how many settlements an you murder? There are an awful lot of bad people - some inevery city - genocide will not work


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Old 09-11-2001, 08:24 PM   #148
Tuor
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Join Date: June 17, 2001
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Firstly I'd like to extend my deepest sympathies to anuyone on this forum who may know any of the victims of these terrible atrocities and all our American friends as well.

Secondly an apology, I've not had time to read all the threads because it's midnight and I have to work in 6 hours but I felt it was important I got my point of view across. So sorry if I double up on anyone else's comments.

The US is now suffering from its recent domestic policy on terrorism, for some reason it has never paid it a lot of attention in the past, sure it has retaliated against atrocities committed against it, but it has never really had to get to grips with constant, aggressive attacks on its home country over a period of years like many other countries have. It therefore lacks the infrastructure and general security measures and awareness that are needed to stop these attacks from happening.

If the US were more aware it would have been considerably more difficult to 'sneak some people on planes with guns' to hijack and then fly the 767s into the world trade centre, pentagon and Pittsburgh (apparently it's ultimate target was camp david).

Yes the FBI, CIA are on the case but they don't patrol every town and city in the country. If this was planned in Britain (IRA), Israel (Hezbollah) or South Africa until recently it would have been far more difficult to perpetrate because all security forces are permanently on a high state of alert.

I'm not saying it would not happen but it would be much more difficult. In short the US has domestically as far as terrorism is concerned been lulled into a false sense of security.

In terms of who is responsible I think it is most likely a powerful fundamentalist terrorist group (probably Bin Laden) backed by one or more countries with a gripe against the USA.

The terrorists provide the maniacs willing to commit suicide to strike at the US while the countries involved provide fake documentation, money, transportation and most important training and the access to cutting edge technology needed to pull off this sort of operation.

A terrorist group on its own would not be able to perpetrate this alone nor would a small group of people acting off there own back, this took months of planning, studying plane timetables and working out ways of sneaking undeteckted onto planes.

My guess is Iraq, the Sudan or Libya are the prime suspects not Afganistan-they just harbor bin laden-there was a quite disgusting statement issued by the Iraqi government today.

Palestine is not guilty because if they were the US would gladly help Israel wipe it off the face of the earth and Araft looked genuineley shocked by what happened.

It smacks of bin laden who told a London based reporter that the US was going to be the target of something very big in the coming weeks a fortnight ago. The group also never admit to attacks like these-and contary to some posts haven't admitted they were involved. They are also aware of how important it is to strike at symbolic targets to give the rest of the extremists a boost-and you don't get much more symbolic than the world trade centre or the pentagon.

I have to say whoever is in charge of security at the airports the planes were hijacked from ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suspect the pilots were murdered because I know if I was flying a plane and someone stuck a gu in my face and told me to fly into the world trade centre I'd crash it into the bay instead given half a chance-you know you'll die anyway.

As to what's to be done you CANNOT strike at every terrorist group on earth because then they'll retaliate ad bring your country to its knees, believe me the IRA have been making a royal nuisance of themselves for the last 40 years in the UK they have caused havoc and that's just one bunch who have tied upo thousands of troopsm, soldiers and resources in an ultimately fruitless pursuit of it.

Multiple that problem by the thousand in a country unused to dealing with terrorists and that is what the US would face.

You cannot physically wipe out all terrorists the best solution in my opinion is for western countries to work hard at their diplomatic relations with the rest of the world so no one wants to sponsor terrorism-bribe them if you must.

If the whole world community works together there is nowhere for these murderous little sods to hide and you'll get them in the end.

The British tried to murder all the IRA leaders in dublin in the 1920s and it did not work. If the solution was to kill all terrorists it would have been done a long time ago-it hasn't been, that should give a clue about how effective that tactic is.

The US also has to be very careful it doesn't overreact and upset potential allies in this-like Russia and China, it should confine itself to a couple of punitive strikes against those responsible, perhaps remove bin laden then get one with recruiting support for a world wide crusade against terrorism and catch everyone responsible if possible.

You can't go eradicating thousands of people because that makes you as bad as them and drums up support for the terrorists. But you should try and bring them to justice, this is an ideal opportunity for the US to prove it really is a super power by acting like one and not taking a scattergun approach and blowing great chunks out of every country ever accused of global terrorism.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone or rambled on a bit but I'm knackered and I thought you might appreciate the effort. I just hope there's a woprld left for us tomorrow I've just heard the US is bombing afganistan.
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Old 09-11-2001, 08:25 PM   #149
Ryanamur
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel:

You say you know it the wrong ideal but still talk of doing it with others? That I'm confused here time to leave the thread.[/B]
I'm not talking of doing it. I know that the US will retaliate. That's a fact of life. Personnally, I believe that it will be both "smart weapons" striking camps and "black operations" to go after the bad guys.

Even if the US managed to kill some of the terrorists, they will not solve this problem unless they eliminate the idea (the population). Which is basicly to eliminate everything out of what we refer to as the "civilised world". Terrorism will always be there wether we like it or not because we will not remedy to the problem as we realize that this would make us terrorist (which by the way we already are).

So, I'm not saying kill them all. I'm saying that to solve the problem, you need to kill them all but, that we will never do that. I'm not promoting genocide, I'm just saying that unfortunately, genocide is the only way to solve this perticular problem. Short of this drastic action, nothing we do will make a difference. And I sure hope that we NEVER resort to war or genocide to solve terrorism...
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Old 09-11-2001, 08:32 PM   #150
Ryanamur
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tuor:
Firstly .....afganistan.
Too long to reply but by far one of the best post in this tread. One little problem: who are we to impose upon them OUR justice system? Are we saying that only American justice (or Western justice systems) are the right one?

IMO, this would not serve anything but to infuriate even more those anti-US groups.

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[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-11-2001).]
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