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Old 12-06-2000, 09:05 AM   #21
WOLFGIR
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Mr.Underhill

Please do!
LOL, interesting details all the time, actually there are even older scripts yet. Old chineesemagics which refer mostly to the ability to summon effects of nature and animals, call lightning, everybody have heard of Lord Raiden I presume, old Chineese God of storm and lightning, protexctor o light? Wel his abilities were early described as magic, also the God of bears who could amass enourmous strength, well the followers of these gods had these abilities from their god to some extent and some are refered to have written down the ancient script which was the words the gods used to utter to make "things happen". You will have to excuse my spelling and memory here, been some years ago since I read this. These scrips are very old sometime before bc and well chineese mysticism is really great but hard to find accurate informaion about. Also the japanese traditions are also more to a more direct use of magic, the European way is very influenced of ancient Egypt, hence the first real Arceologists(spelling sorry not easy for a Swede =) ) these influences colored social life in early 1900 and in fiction writing and so. The Golden Dawn, Alistair Crowley, H.P Lovecraft are just some whoused these influences and also the discovery of old Sumer which religion is really hard to understand and the beliefs of the stars and so on... Wel interesting subjects but way far away from BG2 LOL--
Hopefully some of you all enjoys this..

Well i will let you go to slepp now!
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Old 12-06-2000, 11:05 AM   #22
Merc Widowmaker
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Mr Underhill & WOLFGIR
Mr Underhill, are you by any way related to the Underhills of Bagend or Tookland ?
Well I played PENCIL and paper AD&D for years as a teenager, and must say your line of thinking truely puzzles me. D&D is FANTASY. Its not based on science fiction or mythology nor on any one book. The rules of the game were supoosed to be dynamic and aplicable to any FANTASIAL (spelling ?? ) idea or book. Implementation of the realm or theme was origonally left to the DM. Only with the release of the "Greyhawk" world (a boxed set that outline a whole continent with info and stats on gods, cities, cults, guilds, tribes and a rich history) was the DM released from the task of creating environs or realms for the players to adventure in.
However, and I must stress this D&D is a game of imagination ! Magic has no basis in reality. The closest you can get to Magic in reality is perhaps a miricle or act of the gods or mythology of one sort or the other. D&D was never intended to recreate the magic we base our beliefs in (religious) or to recreate mythology. The rules for mages are origonal, creative and imaginative ideas formulated by the games founder Gary Gygax. While it is true that in the D&D game there are "traveling spell books" and "spell books" and the rules quoted by Mr Underhill are correct. It is also a fact that rules were written for the creation of NEW spell books too, and the encumberence (weight & size) of spell books etc. Indevidual DM's however had the descretion of changing and adding to rules as to better incorporate their indevidual ideas and realms into the rules. An example of this was the "Dragonlance" realm that was created by TSR game designers, and through their game (they played and made the rules at the same time) they created the first two Dragonlance Trilogys. These books were actualy based on the game they played AND (heres my point !) they had changed the rules for how a mage learned and cast his magic acording to schools of magic and the time of the moon.
So in conclusion, D&D is pure imagination, rules are what we make them, magic has no basis in reality and can thus be implemented as we wish. A computer made game will never be as good or imaginative as the origonal PENCIL and paper game and some rules have to be partialy implemented (or not at all ie: you cant fly in BG) just to alow the game to funtion without creating undue stress on release dates, program size and overall complexity. Dont get me wrong I love Balders Gate, but I do wish I could play AD&D again like when I was a teenager.
 
Old 12-06-2000, 11:19 AM   #23
Zenith
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Greetings All,

What a wonderful debate we have going here! Great point, Merc. I would like to point out that in the PnP version, one of the first lines in the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide is that the rules they have laid out are only guidelines and may be changes for the DM's purposes, he/she is after all "GOD" for the game duration. This is what keeps the game interesting and makes for a challenge when someone new takes over. It's all about stretching your imagination to it's limits.

I keep hearing about people who 'used to play' the PnP version and now consider myself lucky to be going on my 15th year as an active player. You're never to old to play like a teenager!
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Old 12-06-2000, 11:36 AM   #24
Merc Widowmaker
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Thank you

Merc takes a bow and wipes the blood of his sword with the edge of his cloak.

PS: I would give up the babey finger of my left hand to play AD&D again, I just cant seem to find other players who would be comitted to playing. I moved to Israel about 6 years ago and well lets just say ... err hmm well they dont know what it is.
 
Old 12-06-2000, 11:27 PM   #25
Mr. Underhill
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I was certainlly never implying that imagination had no bearing on the PnP side of the game, in fact thats what is truly wonderful about it, I was just rambling, I think I felt more like writing then any thing, it was sort of stream of consciousness kinda stuff. I was fricking tired and that all sorta just spilled out. I have many different views of how magic functions in DnD and in the real world, that was more or less one example of the many possible thought processes that run through my head when I'd been up for 24 hr's and half of that time was working, I guess I was a bit delierious.
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Old 12-06-2000, 11:37 PM   #26
Mr. Underhill
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Hey merc,
my sentiments exactly, I dearly miss playing DnD like I did when I was a teenager. It was so exciting, filled wtih fun emotion, creativity and imagination. I try desperately to clin to that innocence but as I get older and freinds move in different diections i't hard if not impossible to recreate those wonderful times. Pizza, coca cola dice and your friend's mom's dining room table so easily bacame what ever your dreams could conjour. Hats off to the past, long live the magic.
ohh and by the way I am distantly related to the Tooks, but some family squabbling in the past haas left us abit a odds. Hahah
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Old 12-07-2000, 01:32 AM   #27
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i am also a player of the pen and paper ad&d, i remember playing campaigns before forgotten realms came out, when i was 7 or 8 years old. i have always played mage, and i might be able to help you decide on your spells. i agree with the others who replied to this topic that the best way to find good spells is to experiment, as i have seen people play radically different styles and still kill alot of creatures. i can try to give you some pointers to help you in your selection.

first, the role of the mage: most mage spells are geared twords direct magical damage, magical damage prevention, physical damage prevention, conjering creatues, enemy disablement, and general changes in overall combat conditions (but clerics are far superior at changing the coarse of other party member's performance then a mage). decide this first: do you want your mage to be shooting at your enemies, or disabling your foes? you can get memorize a veriety of spells, but you will perform better if you try and go for a specific task in combat. if you memorize a wide veriety of spells, you can handle a wider veriety of situations, but keep in mind that if your spell attack is foiled, its bye bye to the tactic you are trying to employ. having another in reserve can really help. however memorizing allot of the same spell can bring about situations where your mage is very much useless, and its up to your other party members to pick up the slack.

mage vs groups of fighters: this is a common sinario, comming accross a group of orogs or yatini or trolls. dissable spells are your best friend in this situation, as a single casting of chaos on a group of creatures will reduce thier combat effectiveness by 66%. having direct damage spells in a group fight is a little combersome, as unless you have a high reaction adjustment (Charisma), you will most likely have atleast 6 seconds before your next spell is cast. area effect spells are somewhat usefull, but most area effect spells for mage will also effect party members. you can more effectively use area effect as a first strike tacktic, where you turn your mage invisible, approach the group, and fire off a death cloud or something like that. keep in mind that this is risky, for mages usually are around 40 hp and get killed easily.

mage vs balanced groups: balanced groups are groups that usually have an archer and a spell caster instead of all fighters. in this case, direct damage and anti protection spells are necessary, and your first target for your mage should be the other spell caster while the rest of the group deals with the fighters. breach is good but has limited effectiveness against high level spell protections. the other mage will almost always fire off a physical protection and a magical protection via contingancy, so your first spell cast on a spell caster should be a breach or a pierce magic if you have it. secret word is an excellant anti protection spell, but keep in mind that it is useless on a mage who has a globe of invulnerablility up. magic missle, as much as people like it, has more functional perpose then damaging effect on a mage, as reflect image and stone skin can easily be worn down by this spell, but other spells that fire just one shot are useless until these basic protections have been removed or dispelled. speaking of which, it is a good tactic to fire off a dispell magic as your first spell, since a balance group will most likely have a cleric and the cleric will cast up bless and Streigth of One on her party members. getting rid of these spells from your enemies will help you significantly, but also the remove magic (cleric spell) is superior to dispell magic, since you can cast this on enemies without it hitting your own pary members. if you can't get rid of the spell protections on a mage, you can always use merph minute missles, since they count as a missle attack and not as a magical attack. this spell will almost always deal damage, even if the target has magic resistances.

mage vs group of mages: this is an ugly battle, as you might find out if you make the mistake of pissing off the cowled wizards. if you are facing a group of mages, you definately want to cast up some magical protecions of your own. physical protections such as stone skin are not your best choice. summoning creatures is very good, since they will act as targets for the enemy mage's spells, buying you more time to try to kill thier protections. dispell magic, remove magic, secret word, and breach are not the best choices against a group of mages. summoning spells, area effect spells that have half damage save roles (such as fireball or ice storm) and reflect image are better choices. globe of invunerability, spell turning, and cast a magic immunity to abjuration are very good tactics. to kill the wizards, consentrate on hitting the wizards in ways that thier protections to not cover, mostly area effects that are not centered on a target, and summoning spells. keep in mind that some nasty spells are going to be flung, so you might not want to send in your party members immediately, let the summoned creatures take the beating.

mage vs group of magic resistant creatures: these are the toughest situations for a mage, and the times when fighters and clerics shine. groups of powerful magic resistant creatures, such as illithed, are the bane of your existance. even if you memorize plenty of lower resistance, you will not have time to cast it on all of the creatures (unless you are facing one powerful creature, such as a dragon). physical protections and summon creatures are your best choices, but keep in mind that if you are facing creatures that can kill your fighters and are resistant, then you have a tough situation on your hands. usually i flounder in this situation, as area effect and direct damage are usually shruged off. greater malison and a spell like chaos is good, but usually with limited success. at that point, i usually cast simaculum, and have both the real caster and the copy cast merphs minute missles and start peking away at the nearest enemy. if you are in a dungeon with lots of baddies like mind flayers, scouting with wizard eye and having a character with improved invisibilty open doors for the eye can allow you to better prepare your attacks. if you can spot your enemy before they spot you, you can cast up some creatures and use them to draw out a few enemies at a time. have the enemy come to you is much better then stumbling into a group of mindflayers backed by umberhulks and slave spellcasters.

mage vs dragons: ah, the best battles in the game are with dragons. i relish fighting these creatures, as unless you are very high level, this is a rewarding challenge. simaculum and project image are very good spells against dragons, as it allows you to be in casting rang of the creature without much risk to your real mage (move the mage to the back of the room and then cast the clones). lower resistance and greater malison is a must. summoned creatures usually are not very usefull, as a dragon will just laugh and throw them back to the end of the room. bears, as tough as they are, are almost useless against a dragon since the bear moves so slowely. still, its a good idea to have as many targes as possible, since i've seen dragons smack the shit out of powerful worriors like a kensi. once you lower the resistance of a dragon, low level spells that deal damage repeatedly are best, such as magic missle and fire arrow.

i hope i helped some. sorry for the spelling errors (spelling isnt a strong point for most programmers if you have any more questions, or want a partner for a game, msg me at mikess@bellsouth.net or icq me at 57573798.
 
Old 12-07-2000, 03:01 AM   #28
WOLFGIR
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WOW!!
Well and god morning, I just arrived at work and had alot of new interesting things to read, thanks!
Well considering mine and Mr.Underhills rambling about magic I think that is just how itcan be whe two peopl chares interests in both fantasy and documented occultism , however I´m strongly a fan of Baldurs Gate and Agree that is made up to be fun to play. It´s nice to see so many P&P players here, I too ohave a problem to play as much as I did as a teenager, the problem of finding other players and time is an essential problem which the guys at Black Isle and Bioware has solved in a fabolous way ( and hey, IU´m first too admit my spelling being a bit terrible t some times, see the headline and you´ll know it..)
antaren420, thanks alot, our mages in P&P, as well as bards have had a very troublesome life I´m afraid, there are more dead mages and bards then anything else on the deathboard a our old gang of players.. These strategies will help.

I´m glad this turn out to be a very interesting discusion!
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