Newbie's First Party (Advice welcome)

[CerebroDragon]

Hello Wizardry fans,

I've finally decided to give my Infinity Engine addiction a break and gone and installed Wizardry 8, wanting some classy turn-based combat. Unfortunately my version of the original that I purchased from a video shop as an ex-rental doesn't have a manual, so I've made do by reasearching a bit of info from a variety of sources (the tips/beginners sections here and the official site in particular) I'm guessing the archives here will be a veritable treasure trove for information as well, which I'll no doubt get to doing as I start playing.
Thus I've scrawled down some notes and are just about ready to get cracking in the game and create my first party. Here's what I'm thinking about going for so far - relatively generic I'd wager, but here goes:

Dwarven Fighter (Lord perhaps?) Party Leader
Dracon (or Lizardman?) Samurai (Polearms)
Felpurr Ninja (Focusing on criticals, thrown weapons)
Mook/Human Bard (Not sure what build to go for...ideas?)
Rawulf/Gnome (?) Priest
Elven Mage

I've considered the Faerie option, but to be honest, any name of a race that reminds me of my time spent with Stonekeep's Faeries is best avoided! (Karzak: Can I fall on my axe now? [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I'd prefer to go pure classed where possible and not get too extravagant with hybrid classing, but where there are question marks, feel free to offer your own experience based advice on what direction you think I should go. I'm somewhat of a cRPG veteran and hope to really feel at home with the old-school/epic hardcore battles to be found in this game. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers in advance,
CD

[ 09-25-2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: CerebroDragon ]

[leptomeninges]

Just came back tho this forum after a long hiatus and saw your thread. First of all, if you're a hard core RPG player, I think you'll love this game. Yes the graphics suck, but the strategy is deep. Of all my RPG gaming experiences this was one of my favorites (moreso than the Baldur's series, primarily for the increased control over character development).

But to reply to your questions. First of all, as I'm sure you know, when it comes to RPGs there are two attitudes towards multiclassing. There are games that reward it, and games that punish it. Wizardry 8 punishes it. Secondarily, by and large, the hybrids are not as powerful as the pure classes. Having said that, the pure classes tend to get a little boring farther into the game. The hybrids keep you engaged better, and thus in my opinion are more fun to play.

Now to your party... I'm going to give you some opinions. You can take them or leave them as you like. Bear in mind that my personal philosophy is that I like to do a reasonable amount of min/maxing within the constraints of making what I consider to be a *fun* party.

1. Lords are some of the worst hybrids. Their dual weild skill bonus is pretty meaningless (I'm not going to crunch the numbers, but take it from me) and their health regeneration is very weak. Fighters hit *much* harder and are much better meat shields. I've never used a dwarf personally. As an aside, in terms of race choice and min/maxing lizards and *hobbits* of all things make some of the best fighters. Hobbits are generally the uber class in this game(as strange as that seems). I usually have a maximum of one hobbit in my party, usually a bard.

2. Dracon samurai. Almost all of my parties include a dracon samurai. Just FYI many people have tried to figure out what triggers the "lightning strike" ability of samurais. To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that has been reliably associated is the weight the samurai is carrying. Don't overburden him. Also, samurais get a bonus skill with swords and there are a few samurai-only swords out there so in my opinion you're missing the boat if you go with polearms.

3. Felpurr ninja. I also love this combination. (Again, in terms of min/maxing, hobbits make some of the best ninjas and samurais both, but I usually ignore that.) You are probably aware that one of the best items in the game is a staff that can only be used by a fairy ninja. Personally, I can't get excited by that combination. My favorite ninja was one who went with throwing as well as dual wielding swords and daggers for close range. (Not the strongest combination, but very fun.) I also maxed her magic. Ninjas can be hard to build. They take a lot of careful work or they end up spread too thin. But late in the game when your other characters essentially have their skills maxed, you usually have some work to do on your ninja which makes it an interesting character. You should also know that items to throw end up being relatively rare. It can be hard to keep your ninja equipped, particularly in the early game. Their throwing ability also isn't as strong as you might think. But it still is very fun.

4. Bard - I usually go hobbit for no particular reason. Bards end up being quite strong as do Gadgeteers with their endurance based casting. Many people like to dual class bards after they hit the level required for the maximum instrument. There really isn't a reason to keep leveling as a bard after that. I think the most popular second class is a rogue.

5. Priest/Mage - While these are both helpful classes, you should know that bishops are by far the most powerful spell casters. They get access to all spell schools and are completely overpowered. They take more work to level. If you need tips on training their spell schools I can provide them. If you don't want to labor over it, the priest and mage are fine choices.

Other classes you may want to consider:
Rogues are very powerful. They do insanely high damage.
Gadgeteers are also very powerful. It takes some work to assemble their gadgets though. Personally I go with mook gadgeteers.
Rangers are actually more powerful ranged attackers than the ninja. Ranged weapons aren't particularly strong in this game though as enemies close very quickly. The only reason to use them is from the back line if you don't have an extended reach melee weapon.
Monks are very fun and powerful. However, there is a recruitable monk NPC and for this reason many people skip this class.
There are other recruitable NPCs -- the most popular is a Valkyire as she is somewhat important to the plot.
I personally never use NPCs as I don't like to split the experience with them.

And for whatever it's worth, the most fun party I ever played was and ironman four man on the highest difficulty:

Lizard Samurai (my meatshield -- I prefer Dracon generally but I needed the extra stat points)
Felpurr Ninja
Human Monk
Fairy Bishop

As they are all hybrids they took a lot of work to get all their skill points up. But it was a lot of fun. As a first time player though you may find it easier to go with the non-hybrids.

I don't know how active these boards are, but if you have other questions go ahead and put them up. I'll check back in a bit.

[Dave G]

The most powerful parties are much harder to use at the begining and much harder if you don't know the game that well. I recommend this party, which is fairly strong from begining to end:

Lizardman Fighter: You can get your STR and CON maxed really fast. Early in the game, you can get a sword called Bloodlust, which you will want to give this guy and have him keep for most of the game.

Felpurr Samauri: Lightning speed

Elf Mage: Mages and Priests are great for the 3/4 of the game, but slowly fade in power as a Bishop grows stronger. That's not to say they are bad -- by the end of the game, most enemies are very magic resistant -- but they will hit their plataeu earlier than other classes.

Elf Priest: See mage. Most useful thing here is getting Heal-all earlier in the game

Elf Bishop: Very weak at the begining, the strongest character at the end of the game, and very time-consuming. You will spend far more time trying to build this character than any other. For your first time through, one is about all you'll want to handle.

Felpur Ninja: This 6th character could really be anyone. Some would say a bard is better. I had bards, I never use them in any games -- I'm prejudice like that. Ninja is able to standup in the front line, able to throw criticals (though there are not enough throwing weapons), deal with locks and traps. They also have mage spells. This is a wide selection of skills, I'd use them to feel anything you think is lacking.

[leptomeninges]

Just checking back and I saw Dave G's reply. Generally I agree with what he recommends. But before you pick your classes, you really need to make a decision about the kind of gaming experience you want.

Your party composition will drastically alter the amount of time required to complete the game. If you just want to cruise through and see the content, I'd use his party and I'd probably drop the bishop for a rogue. Rogues are the king of melee damage. Trust me.

While hybrid parties are more interesting at the end, they require a lot of time "training skills." You'll spend a few (real time) hours at the vault in Arnika leveling up your casting skills on your bishop and likely your hybrids also. You may decide to "train" your stealth, iron skin, or iron will skills also. "Training skills" is frequently necessary for hybrid characters, but it requires a significant investment of your time. (And I agree with Dave G. Maxed bishops are very powerful, but they require a big time investment). You may want to save this for a second trip through when you play with more hybrids at a high level of difficulty.

There are several things that hurt hybrids and make them harder to level. They typically start with fewer stat points which means that they unlock the high level skills (with a stat maxed at 100) later than "pure" classes. On top of this, in some cases they have to spread their stats thinner since they usually have multiple roles (ie: caster and melee). You add to that that they have higher experience requirements per level, causing them to level slower than "pure" classes, and you slow their development further. On top of that, they have far more skills in which to invest points. And finally, their special abilities (like "lightning strike" for samurais) are much weaker than the abilities of pure classes (backstabbing rogues and berzerking fighters).

Long story short -- they are lots of fun, but develop much slower.

The only thing I'd really disagree with Dave on is that I'd give Bloodlust to your samurai. The big benefit of bloodlust is that it induces berzerking which is already a class skill for your fighter. It's been a long time since I played Wiz 8 though, so maybe he knows something I don't

[Dave G]

Originally posted by leptomeninges: The only thing I'd really disagree with Dave on is that I'd give Bloodlust to your samurai. The big benefit of bloodlust is that it induces berzerking which is already a class skill for your fighter. It's been a long time since I played Wiz 8 though, so maybe he knows something I don't

Well, there's a chance I'm wrong, but I believe Bloodlust allows a fighter to bezerk up to 3x damage (as opposed to 2x on the Samauri). Though I guess you can do whatever you'd like with Bloodlust.

[Nightwing]

If this is your forst time through go with a ranger instead of the ninja so you don't pass on any hidden items. Also use sword with the Sam so you get the bennefits of lightning strike. Drop the mage for an alchemist they have more to do with the game. You really do need to figure out what kind of gaming you want to do. This game has so much replay ability it doesn't matter because you will keep playing it time and again. You will probably restart 4 or 5 times before you find a party you take to the end anyway.

[DraconFighter]

The Bard is another good candidate for Bloodlust. With various Bard items, the Bard will eventually be your strongest character. I you develop the Bard Str Dex, then Sen Vit, you'll have a real killing machine. I don't believe Bloodlust adds any extra Bezerk to a Fighter. I don't class-change my Bards as their music power continues to grow with Bard level.

[CerebroDragon]

Thanks for all the tips chaps - especially to Lepto and DaveG for their extended advice and ideas, much food for thought indeed! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Go easy on the item spoilers and stuff though, I'm keen to play with as little foreknowledge on what is coming as possible, without power-gaming too much unless I'm forced to. Hence I'm avoiding the bishops at least to begin with...

Here's what I've settled on to start me off. I think I've been a little influenced by both my memories of playing Bard's Tale III and Might and Magic II on the C64 for some of my class choices.

Dwarven Fighter (Decided against the Lord for similar reasons mentioned...)

Dracon Samurai (I'm pleased that this choice has some background credentials! Although I considered a Lizardman for awhile also.)

Felpurr Ninja (Named after my cat, Ebon. Have read that dual-wielding will add to critical strike potential, so am curious.)

Rawulf Priest (Gone for bless/heal to start)

*Mook Bard (Unsure on the precise build
*Elven Mage

* - Indicating that the status of these two choices is still a trial period only. May swap them for a Hobbit Rogue/Ranger and the Mage for as Nightwing offered, an Alchemist. Alternatively, I'm hoping there's an npc or two I can have to fulfill at least one of these classes. I'm not too concerned about xp spread, it'll just mean I'll have to play for longer!

As to my play expectations, I'm just happy enough to play it through with a fun party of my own design and see everything for the first time as if I were a child.

Anyway, once I fix my display problem (see that thread for more info) I'm ready to start exploring the world!

Cheers,
CD

[Silpion]

Just try the party. You'll notice if you don't like a character. I startet more than a few parties before reaching the first town...

[Dave G]

When trying out parties, don't forget, some characters may appear to be useless to start out, but later, they will come into being. A gadgeteer especially -- they will suck for like 3/4 of the game, then suddenly become killing machines.