The Story So Far... (long)

[leptomeninges]

This is an update on the challenge party I posted a few days ago. Why am I doing it? Because I've never played past the Rapax castle. The game gets too easy and I lose interest, even on Ironman/Expert.

The gimmick:

1. Four characters, all hybrids, with skill points spread THIN:

Lizardman Samurai
(Dualwield/Sword/Critical/Bow/Ranged/CloseCombat/Wizardry/All Realms)

Human Monk
(Martial Arts/Staff/CloseCombat/Critical/Stealth/Psionics/All Realms)

Felpurr Ninja
(Sword/Dagger/CloseCombat/Throwing/RangedCombat/Critical/Stealth/Alchemy/All Realms)

Elf Bishop
(Shield/Mace/Sling/CloseCombat/RangedCombat in addition to the standard six realms)

2. I'm refusing to use weapons I consider to be overpowered. My list of banned weapons includes: bloodlust, fang, cane of corpus, staff of doom, light sword, excalibur, etc. I do have my eye on a few weapons that I consider to be good without being overpowered. I'll tell you which I plan to use by endgame later in the post.

3. Ironman/Expert difficulty (of course). And since it is Ironman, chest reloads and the like are out.

4. No recruitable NPCs

The story:

The Monastery is a breeze. I'll admit to exploiting a few tricks. I encounter a group of seekers and train stealth up to about 70 on my monk and ninja while the bishop's shield trains to 50. I'm a bit nervous about having two high stealth characters in my party, but plan to use my lizardman samurai for a super lizard meatshield. I'm maxing his strength and vit first to hit powerstrike and ironskin ASAP. I estimate he'll probably take about 2/3 of the melee attacks. Hopefully he'll be up to it. Why don't I just give the bishop and samurai a level of rogue and pump their stealth also? To me that's too cheap. All my characters will be pure -- no multiclassing.

I run past everything on the Arnika road. Past experience has taught me not to mess around.

I hit Arnika and do my standard routine. Raid the bank. Buy every spellbook I can get my hands on. Train the bishop's alchemy/earth using the vault door trick. Mix a ton of potions for gold. Bloodlust sits in my samurai's inventory, but has never been equipped. I like it as a role playing element. A dark sword of power -- in his very posession -- and yet he fears to use it.

Where to from here? I always save my spell picks for the bishop so I decide to hit the Umpani base first thing for more spell books. I clean them out and upgrade the bishop's armor to the flak vest. I'm feeling pretty good. And pretty cocky. This is my first game with a throwing ninja (I usually do a fairy with CoC) and I've heard enough about them that I know I'm going to have a hard time keeping her equipped with throwing weapons. So I decide to make a run for the boomerang shuriken in the Mountain Wilderness.

Some of you can probably predict what happened. I carefully destroy four groups of winged serpents to reach the valley floor (using all my resurrection powders in the process), and then things fall apart. Eight scorchers have been watching my slow descent down the mountain. They are all but drooling at the thought of my fresh, untrained, level 8 flesh. I reach the valley floor and they are on me. Their fire breath does 20 hit points of damage a pop. Hell, my bishop only has about 30 hit points total right now. I turn tail and come within my lizardman samurai's last four hitpoints of a total party wipeout.

I'm out of resurrection powder. I'm pissed off at my cockiness. My pulse is racing. Then I realize. I haven't had this much fun in a long time.

My samurai returns to the Umpani base. He encounters a lone slime on the way but resists the urge to equip bloodlust to take it out. First things first. I'll have my revenge later.

Only two resurrection powders available at the base. Crap. I resurrect my ninja and bishop (my monk will have to wait) and head back to Arnika. I get jumped by a group of greater seekers and in my cockiness I almost get wiped out again. This time only my ninja is still standing. I've never heard the voiced dialogue before when only one character is left. Pretty cool.

Back in Arnika I regroup and make a new plan. I'll stick with the conventional route for now and will return to the Mtn. Wilderness when I have the power to obliterate my enemies.

On to the Rattkin tree. I'm doing fine until I hit the breeders. Scary. They are hitting three or four times each round for 20-30 hp each hit. One of them slams my bishop and she's elf pudding. When will I ever learn? Why don't I cast guardian angel earlier or at least have more resurrection powders? Oh well, Don Barlone is just around the corner. I'll buy another powder and will have her back in a second. Or will I?

I leave the breeder's lair and find that between me and the Don are four Rattkin goons, four Rattkin snipers, six vampire bats, three giant spiders, and nine wasps. What the hell? I was just on that bridge. Where did they come from? My samurai looks longingly at Bloodlust. It calls to him! The power is at his very fingertips! He takes a deep breath and draws his enchanted broadsword instead. It's not worth the price.

Battle begins and my samurai is taking a terrible beating. I only hit iron skin a level ago and it has already climbed to 16 on its own without any points at level-up. The biggest problem? His stamina. Why don't I carry more pots with me? I end up rotating my samurai, ninja, and monk through the front lines while the others rest to regenerate stamina. I scour my inventory for every bomb and powder I've picked up. My ninja throws everything but the kitchen sink at them. Luckily I have a ton of healing pots. It's the stamina that almost does me in. Somehow all are still alive at the end of the fight. I resurrect my bishop with a powder from the Don and lean back in my chair, breathing heavily.

Analysis:

How have they fared?

Monk - He's the powerhouse. I don't think I every realized how powerful monks can be. RFS-81 usually doesn't arrive until your other melee players are already dominating with Bloodlust and the like. Since he doesn't use a ranged weapon (he uses a staff for extended range) he also benefits from having fewer skills that I'm sinking points into. I'm maxing str/dex first and then will move on to spe/sen. My philosophy is to max the traits first that unlock the best elite skills. (My experience is that elite skills like powerstrike climb fast on their own without investment. The key is to just unlock them early.) I expect that stealth, reflextion, and his innate damage resistance will make him almost impossible to take down by endgame. I've never used the Zatoichi Bo before so I plan to give it to him once we hit the castle. I know -- it is probably overpowered. But it arrives too late to influence things much and martial arts will be his primary. And besides, I've never used it before and want to have a bit of fun.

Samurai - The soul of my party. I love samurais, although I usually go human. I see the other posts where people feel they're underpowered. In my experience, they rock. I used a Lizardman this time to get ironskin early. After Str/Vit he'll get his sen/dex pumped. (Sen is only 30 right now! ugh!) Eventually I plan to give him the ivory blade and enchanted wakizashi. The ivory blade is a strong weapon, but in my opinion, not overpowered. (A completely arbitrary decision on my part.)

Ninja - Probably the weakest so far, although her kill total only trails by a few. Partly this is due to having so many skills I'm trying to pump up for her. Most of her combat skills are in the forties right now with the exception of critical strike which stands at about eighty. I'll admit to being a bit disappointed with her thrown criticals. She hits often, but I haven't seen too many instant kills. Hopefully it will improve when I give her throwing weapons with a higher innate critical chance. I'm pumping her str and sen first for powerstrike and eagle eye. I hope the lack of reflextion until late in the game won't hurt her too much. If she gets hit too hard in any battle I'll just move her to the back row where she can throw and cast. Eventually she'll wield the bushido blade and a stiletto. In many ways she is the most fun character since she can do so many different things.

Bishop - My problem child. I feel like the bishop is my quarterback -- she runs the show from the back lines and keeps people out of trouble. However, I'm struggling to keep her alive. It's the curse of having two characters with stealth in a four character party. I anticipated this, and hoped that by keeping her on the back row my lizardman would take most of the melee hits. Her shield would be added defense and a quick advancement to iron will would negate the ranged attacks of casters. My problem is with ranged or extended weapon attackers. They feast on her. Still I have hope. Missile shield has improved things immeasurably. And if I'm disciplined enough to cast a quick guardian angel I usually do fine. Once I max int/wis I'll pump her vit (only 35 right now). Eventually she'll use the cat of nine tails or vampire chain for extended range attacks from the back row in addition to her magic.

Synopsis:

First of all, thanks for reading. This is by far the most fun I've had with a party. Given the number of close calls I've had, I give myself a 50% chance of finishing the game alive (the curse of ironman), but the challenge is part of the fun. Unfortunately, between my work and family, playing time is limited. I'll update my narrative again when I have a chance.

[ 11-15-2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: leptomeninges ]

[SecretMaster]

Glad to see your having fun. In case anyone hasn't

Welcome to IW Leptomeninges!

Anyways, I can't see how Wiz8 is too easy for anyone, but I guess there are always masters out there. Its amazing what you're doing. I haven't any idea how to keep your boredom at bay, but I have a good idea. You might need an emulator or an old comp, but play wiz7. You'll find that wiz7 is by far better than wiz8, or at least in my opinion. Plus, you can then import, and see all the goodies. Thats my advice

Another suggestion. There are some brilliant minds on this Wiz8 forum, lots of them (I won't name names). But, you seem to know this game amazingly. You, and the other people on this forum should work together and create a Wiz8 strategy guide.

BTW, maybe you should pick the opposite races for classes for a challenge. Maybe a liz bishop and put the stats in the wrong place, like strenght.

wow, lepto! it sounds like you're having a real blast! definitely, keep us posted as you make progress

personally, i've found that wiz8 character system, relative to opposition, is incredibly balanced, so the challenge is more in adapting your style to your party composition than anything else. it sounds like from your couple of close calls you've seen this first hand!

limiting items and weapons is an interesting approach. someone else did a non-magic "illiterate" party (scatter?) that similarly uncovered different nuances of the game.

perhaps, if you want to challenge yourself further, limit your character from the types of training activities you described for stealth, shield, earth, mental, etc. tricks like that will improve your characters' skills beyond their level, which, of course, would make wiz 8 seem easy later in the game.

please understand i say this as someone who uses similar tricks to overpower my parties early (eg mix-camp-repeat). [img]smile.gif[/img]

[leptomeninges]

Thanks for the comments.

SecretMaster --
You're very flattering. But I honestly can't "own" most of the ideas for party building I use. If you're looking for something like a strategy guide, try:

http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/
There's a ton of info there (although some of the character guides are a bit outdated imho). He also links most of the best sites.

or

http://robincollins.net/forums/index.php
Go to the wizardry 8 forum and at the top you will see some of Atlus7's more recent character guides.

I think that most people would agree that Atlus7 did most of the analysis which has become widely accepted. The one point on which I disagree with him is his emphasis on speed. In my opinion, the elite skill it unlocks (snakespeed) is not nearly as useful as some of the other elite skills (powerstrike or reflextion.) And one casting of haste maxes speed for the whole party. I think you'll see that his thinking on this changes also in his more recent character guides.

The Best Tips thread here is also helpful and there's also a pretty good beginner's guide somewhere in this forum I glanced at the other day.

Sultan --
Yep, if I skipped training activities it would make it yet more challenging. It's a very strange thing how we as gamers decide what is cheap and what fits our idea of "game justice." For instance, I will happily spend an hour doing mindless, repetitive activies to train a skill. But the thought of using a "trainer program" to do the same revolts me. Ahh, the paradoxes of life.

[ 11-15-2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: leptomeninges ]

[Scatter]

Heh--about Ivory--i agree with allowing it, if i understand your idea of 'overpowered'. My reasons include that you have to collect certain items, one of which is in a pretty difficult spot no matter what level you are.
I made me a Human Monk once who used Martial Arts in Short range and the Za-to for Extended. I started with a Shillela in the secondary and empty primary, and a sling for ranged, until her Throwing was at 30 (not fumbling Death Bomb is pretty important), then i put a Hayai in her alternate and took the Shill out. I raised her Str/Dex/Vit at 2 each to 80, then gave 3 each into Spd and Sen. She was in a Duo with a Hobbit Ninja.
I've also run a Lizzy Sam as one of my random-race/class/'sex' parties, and i really enjoyed having a smart Liz.
I dunno about class "purity". I always imagine this conversation between characters:
Rogue: Hey, looky, i've figured out how to dodge Seeker spit!
Bishop: Wow, i wish i could do that!
Rogue: well, it's not all that hard, really, just gotta concentrate on it for a while, here, i'll show you. Put that spellbook down, and that Mitre. You can keep your staff, and maybe even wear some of this nice hardened leather for when you miss your dodge...
Bishop: Well, that sounds like fun, it'll be a nice break from my magical schooling, and i can still cast Stamina and Heal, so my purpose is fulfilled. Is it true that you can get as much as twice as hard to hit with this Stealth knowledge?
(they walk off, looking for some critters for dodging practise...)

Of course, now i've discovered the merits of being a Ninja for my Bishop's stealth training--you can also build your Dual Wield and Crit. My Bishop i'm running now has two Diamond Eyeses and gets 2X2 swings. And has insta-whacked on a few important occasions. (One of the Breeders, eg, but that was with an Enchanted Mace)

[Wereboar]

Nice story. Surprising that you survived this far.

Train the bishop's alchemy/earth using the vault door trick. Mix a ton of potions for gold.

If you consider the game to be too easy, don't do this. IMHO it adds to the game when i have to decide what to do with my money - by powders, buy equipement, buy books.
Except in my first game, i only merge potions when i need them (renewal potions when drained), but not for selling.

a hard time keeping her equipped with throwing weapons. So I decide to make a run for the boomerang shuriken in the Mountain Wilderness.

There are nice items behind the waterfall, but the boomerang shuriken is in the southeast wildernesse temple.
Side note: not many nice items for you. I think your samurai prefers shield over enchanted wakazashi, and staff of doom is banned.

On to the Rattkin tree. I'm doing fine until I hit the breeders. Scary. They are hitting three or four times each round for 20-30 hp each hit.

In my ironman games, i usually don't kill the breeders when i'm around for the first time (unless i have a level 11 spell caster that might allow portal out).

Monk - He's the powerhouse. I don't think I every realized how powerful monks can be. ... I've never used the Zatoichi Bo before so I plan to give it to him once we hit the castle. I know -- it is probably overpowered. But it arrives too late to influence things much and martial arts will be his primary.

Yes, monk with martial arts is IMHO the character with the 3rd highest damage output (after warrior and rogue).

I agree with allowing Zatoichi Bo. He gives up ranged attack for it, and its probably less powerful than martial arts.

The ivory blade is a strong weapon, but in my opinion, not overpowered. (A completely arbitrary decision on my part.)

IMO the best thing about it is the unlimited haste spell. Aside from this, i consider Fang to be much better. Maybe don't use the activation?

Bishop - My problem is with ranged or extended weapon attackers. They feast on her.

If you're facing enemies with extended reach, move your melee characters to the front row, and the bishop in the back. The empty middle row will add enough distance.

[leptomeninges]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I haven't played in about a year and had forgotten the location of the boomerang shuriken. I thought it was in the crypt with diamond eyes. Imagine my surprise after fighting my way through the mountain wilderness to realize that the journery was (for my party) pretty worthless.

Another miscalculation on my part: Ninjas can't use stiletto's.

I want to type up another update soon so I'll save my full story for now. Except to mention that I resisted going with stealth for my bishop althoguh I was very tempted to use Scatter's argument for it.

More soon...

[dplax]

Originally posted by Wereboar: If you're facing enemies with extended reach, move your melee characters to the front row, and the bishop in the back. The empty middle row will add enough distance.

But be careful to always face a wall with your bishop otherwise they will just slaughter him.