What has Bin Laden done?

[Staralfur]

Originally posted by Melusine: Ouch. Kind of a dodgy comparison there... heh. But I get your point... we need to try and understand just how different these people's minds work. What is punishment to us is eternal glorification for them. Simply assassinating him would possibly be the worst thing we can do. This incredible, horrible disregard of the value of a human life that these terrorists display is something that needs to be rooted out and destroyed. I really see that as the core of the problem. To me it is unconcievable that there are human beings on this world to whom the life of another human being has no value at all! I used to think it was precisely THAT which made us human! EDIT: aaaaaaargh quoting function

I didn't mean people to take the comparison too far, there are many other martyrs to many other causes I just felt that this was one most people would be able to relate with. There are some major differences between the 2, but I believe it is possible for their followers to see them in a similar way; both 'campaigning' for what they believe is a just cause. I don't mean to start a huge moral argument here so I'll finish by saying I don't support Bin Laden methods at , but I can see his where some of his arguments come from. I'm not a Christian either (although I do believe Jesus existed), but I do try to live by what are seen as Christian principles.

I agree with the assasinating/executing him, no matter how many lives he may have taken you would still be sinking to his level by killing him. There certainly are no easy solutions


Memnoch; A lot of that falls in with what I was thinking - kind of the unstopable force hitting the immovable object. The problem is a lot of the world seems to be 'baying for blood' (? - do I mean that), which to me seems the wrong path to follow (see quote below). At the moment it all seems like a huge game of poker, where the stakes are the highest possible and no one whats to call the hand yet. (Oh dear, another dodgy comparison)


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"The old law about "an eye for an eye" leaves everybody blind."
--Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[This message has been edited by Staralfur (edited 09-19-2001).]

Originally posted by Staralfur: Originally posted by Gwhanos, Lord Of Evil: If he does get convicted, he'll be sentenced to death I know it. If he is sentanced to death he will be heralded as a martyr by his followers, and maybe more than that, (a similar thing happened to Jesus). If he is not then someone had better find somewhere very safe to put him.

If I recall Jesus never advocated violence on anyone. I am also pretty sure they didn't have terrorist bombing incidents either...then again news coverage at the time was a bit spotty



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[Fljotsdale]

Memnoch, that Sydney Daily Telegraph article is excellent. It says what most of us have been thinking.

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[Larry_OHF]

His finger-prints were said to have been discovered at the '93 bombing attempt.
If we cannot convict him of the most recent occurance, we will still have reason to chase him down for the previous one.
He admitted to that attempt in '93. This last thing that happened is only a really good excuse to start the chase, I suppose.

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Father of the wicked but cute child known as MaryBeth

Padre de una niña bien traviosa pero guapa
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Aisukuríimu ga tabetái desu.

[Throntar]

I'll tell you what really burns my ass about bin Laden is how friggin' smart the guy is. Yes, he's a maniac...but *very* sharp.

The guy has reportedly (once again...no proof...just leaks to the media) profited off the attacks in the NYSE. He apparently short-sold tons and tons of stock in American Airlines and United Airlines and is walking away with a boatload of money (on paper anyway...)! More money for more terrorist acts...scary...

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Now where did I leave that doughnut?!

If Bin Laden is Captured He WILL BE CONVICTED for the bombings of 2 american ambassies in Africa
He'll get 2 Life Sentances + 120 years or so

It be best not to kill him but to let the muslims themselfs kill him as that way he won;t be a martyr

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[Staralfur]

Originally posted by Rikard: If Bin Laden is Captured He WILL BE CONVICTED for the bombings of 2 american ambassies in Africa He'll get 2 Life Sentances + 120 years or so It be best not to kill him but to let the muslims themselfs kill him as that way he won;t be a martyr

I thought he was only the prime suspect for these attacks, (though I could be getting confused with something else). As Throntar said he is a very sharp guy and would certainly be careful to keep any evidence down to a minimum. Also how would you get Muslims to kill him? and if they did surely they would be forever labelled as traitors.


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"The old law about "an eye for an eye" leaves everybody blind."
--Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[J.J.]

Good point, Rikard. I am afraid there will be many martyrs before this is done. There is no one who thinks we can simply bomb terrorists off the face of the earth. That is a given, this war was declared over 20 years ago, we will finish enough of it to cripple those whose only goal is our destruction. They have succeeded in one thing - we are united as a people in a way that has not hapened since Dec. 7, 1941.
posted 09-19-2001 11:13 AM
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I saw the first commercial plane since last week in the skies over Great Falls, a Boeing 727 Fed Ex. It wasn't until I heard the sound of a jet coming in for a landing that I realized what a large part of my daily existence was missing. I guess we become easily habituated to our surroundings, and being so self-involved in our own lives only means we do not have to struggle to provide the basic food, shelter, and clothing we need, as more than half of the world must do. If we did, "spare time" would not be such a consuming passion here.
Some wish to blame us for our prosperity, as if to have so much meant that others must have too little. We have never replaced prosperity with poverty anyplace in the entire world, unlike anyone else who had a better idea for how other people should live. We have taken many attacks before this one, and done things to remedy the situation that have fallen short because of the resistance of those who think 'that only if they are nicer, the bad people will stop killing innocents and discuss their issues.' I believe we have seen the ultimate consequences of letting that minority dictate the way we protect our own.
This is a war that was openly declared, for me, in Lebanon, 1983. They bombed our soldiers, people I had served with and knew, my brothers. We investigated the heck out of the situation, did nothing to make the sacrifice of over 200 mother's sons worthwhile.
Fair Enough
We served our time in uniform, understood it's risks. You want a safe job, be an accountant for a tax firm. I had my share of unofficial 'incidents' over the years, all for the uniform I wore, and the way of life I represented. Ran for our lives through the streets of Frankfurt, pursued by the fringes of the soviet supported 'nonviolent' peace/no nukes demonstrators, children of the generation freed by our fathers from the darkest tyranny known to the modern world. Slight thanks for that, and the cost of rebuilding most of your continent, debt unpaid.
Fair Enough

America has contributed over 80% of the relief gathered for victims of disaster, be it flood, fire, famine, or war, in the ENTIRE world, since World War 2, regardless of country of origin, political or religious persuasion.
Our beleagured farmers still grow over half of the food eaten in the world, including those who chant 'death to america'
I have stopped being fair.

Those who hate us simply because our way of life encourages an individual to be and think for themselves, show their fear of thought independent of their control. They are, and always have been, our enemy, ever since the first ones wore red coats and followed orders from across the ocean over 200 years ago.
I wouldn't have it any other way.

These criminals have declared "Holy War and Death to America" after every sneak attack they carried out on innocents who had nothing to do with foreign policy. I have seen them dancing in their streets, burning our flag, using men, women and children as cover and currency. They say their holy war means that any believer who dies trying to kill or hurt others is going to go straight to their version of heaven, so it means the life they have here and now is best used up in a hurry.
I want to help.

Those here who are now starting to speak against going into Afganistan, because there would be innocent people hurt there, hurt me the most. They are the ones who declined to retaliate when my brothers and countrymen were killed, who said we can't just go in and kill those who killed us. It would cause too many problems, take too many innocent lives. The help of the liberal media gave you a much greater presence on the national stage than I believed you actually had.
I am glad the very small percentage of people who think like that has finally been revealed to the rest of the country, so we can ignore them now.
I will defend to the death their right to continue to speak, though.

The terrorists have stated many times the wish to 'end the US'. It is time we finally took the steps necessary to end them. This was not just an attack on our country, it was an attack on our way of living, and also on those around the world who live relatively free lives under a form of government like the one our founders envisioned so long ago. We would of course welcome those who wish to take those steps with us, even though we can do it ourselves.
I would walk those steps myself.

not really what I had envisioned when I started writing this. I have been in, or associated with, the military for over half of my life now, and 20 years of frustration with the unanswered pinpricks of terror has been brought to a head.
Those who say the US did this or that to bring on this attack, and all the others previous, are just wrong and do not get it. I have to admit, I have a hard time understanding why they think the way they do, but I'm not going to fly a plane into their house because of it.
I really wanted to start this to have others write what they have seen that shows us getting back to the business of being the greatest nation and people on the planet. Hope I did not hijack my own thread
What ordinary things have you seen start again that makes you think?


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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.

[Ryanamur]

Just to backtrack a little:

1- If we jail him, he'll be a motivation factor and a martyr like Nelson Mandela was in South Africa.

2- If we -or another muslim- kill him, he'll be a motivation factor and a martyr like Jesus (even if he does preach violence against the West).

3- If we bring him to justice, he'll be a motivation factor and a martyr like Nelson Mandela.

The thing is, whatever we do, he will be regarded as a martyr and will bring more people to adopt a more fundamental line. That's just life. Now, of all three scenarios, I'm a strong believer that killing him is the safest route to go. Dead, he cannot mastermind other attacks. Alive, he can still do that (even if in jail). Plus, people tend to forget dead people after a while. They never forget a martyr in jail.

[J.J.]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: Just to backtrack a little: 1- If we jail him, he'll be a motivation factor and a martyr like Nelson Mandela was in South Africa. 2- If we -or another muslim- kill him, he'll be a motivation factor and a martyr like Jesus (even if he does preach violence against the West). 3- If we bring him to justice, he'll be a motivation factor and a martyr like Nelson Mandela. The thing is, whatever we do, he will be regarded as a martyr and will bring more people to adopt a more fundamental line. That's just life. Now, of all three scenarios, I'm a strong believer that killing him is the safest route to go. Dead, he cannot mastermind other attacks. Alive, he can still do that (even if in jail). Plus, people tend to forget dead people after a while. They never forget a martyr in jail.

This point, and explanation, can not be seen or read too often, as a reminder to those who say since you can't do it perfectly, you can't do it at all.


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Unstinting Gaurdian of Children
Defender of Those Unable To

To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy. Nuke'm til the damn camels glow.