Yorick?

[Fljotsdale]

Hey, THANKS, Tracey! I don't care you are offensive, lol! Its nice to see someone else take my position on this! I've been feeling like a lonesome voice in the wilderness, with everyone agin me, lol! (Sorry about the grammar and sorta-mixed metaphors)
I look forward to your next contribution.

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 07-17-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by tracey: in support of fljots - go girl!! the concept of the trinity has been around far longer than the bible. pagan and celtic 'religion' to name but two, have had trinities from their inception. they are useful devices to represent different areas of the spiritual and the physical. christianity has adopted them in their current form, in the same way that the winter festival and accompanying traditions were amalgamated in order to entice the simple folk to accept christianity - they didn't have to dispense with their own long-held festivals of fun and frolics. the 'trinity'has been laid over as fact what actually is never actually stated at all in the bible. and what makes the bible the sole source of wisdom and truth anyway? it's bollocks. as is the q'raan (can't spell it) and all other religions. they have some nice ideas, but frankly, the thought that anyone takes any of it seriously is completely laughable. take from any text and spoken word or deed anything that is nice, and good. but hey, develop your own concience and morality. the bible's morality is appalling in the extreme. i never could accept that god was a nice person, and i don't care how split its personality is. tomorrow, i will post some proper info on trinities after doing some swift research at work to refresh my memory. so, there you go, fljots, a bit od support - hasty, and possibly slightly offensive. but...... anyway, it's been interesting reading the nit picking..!

Tracy have you even read the previous posts? The reason why your post is offensive is that you have ignored previous debate and insulted my intelligence for one. I have not put down Fljotsdale, or anyones right or choice to believe anything and I do not appreciate your tone and insulting put down.

Regarding your argument, you have presented nothing that even resembles proof other than wild speculation and broad general references. What festivals are you referring to? Who introduced these? What communities were enticed by such? What documentation is there to back this up? Easter replaced passover which was a Jewish not pagan, festival, and the birth of Christ was celebrated before Saint Nicholaus day. Aside from Lent, Palm Sunday and Good Friday I can't even think of any special occasions, let alone a 'winter festival'. Anyhow what has this got to do with anything? Christianity is not a collection of fesivals, rituals or magic words. It is a state of heart, a frame of mind. Who cares what festival came from where? I celebrate what happened on Easter one any day as much as possible, not just on one specific day.

Concerning trinitys of course the concept existed outside Christianity. I am not an idiot. The Chinese for one have the one/three ways - Buddhism, Toaism and Confucionism. Hinduism has three supreme Gods (Brahma. Shiva, Vishnu) that could be viewed almost trinitarian in that Hinduism is ultimately pantheistic.
However, we are debating whether the Christian Trinity - the Godhead - as a concept exists in the Bible and whether Christianity bases it's theory on Biblical teaching. We are not debating whether the Bible or Quran is the sole source of moral guidance or even debating whether Christianity or any other religion is right or wrong, merely whether the Bible contains the reference - which is why we have been quoting it. Any answers to your feeble argument have already been stated so I shall not dishonour past posts and repeat either myself or the others words.

Also by who's yardstick are you measuring the Bibles "appalling" morality? Are you from the West? Not the same West that bases its laws and judicial system on Judeo-Christian principles perhaps? Not the same West that draws feminism, human rights and egalitarianism from Christian principles. You can't be referring to the apartheidic racist casteism upheld by Hinduism can you?

Your put down of the majority of human beings is what is "Bollocks" Tracey. Suggesting that all religious believers that have ever lived are "laughable" is to write off all but a small percentage of the human race. It is you who is laughable. I'd suggest that if you wish to insult me or my kind again you do so on another thread. This has been a thread with respectful, passionate and educated discussion thus far, and your post is far from condusive to such.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Yorick? I'm sorry, but I feel in honour bound to leap to Tracey's defence!
No, she was not exactly polite in her expression of her views - but I am deeply grateful that someone else was moved to weigh in on my side of the debate! I am fighting alone here, (See Fljotsdale, The Lone Warrior Matron fighting against overwhelming forces... etc, etc. ) but you all support one another, lol!

I have seen Tracey'c comments on other matters in the Gen. Disc. forum and I remember her saying she doesn't like using smilies. I think if a few smilies HAD been included you may not have found her comments so offensive.

Take note, Tracey! USE smilies!

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[Yorick]

Fljotsdale you are alone because not many of those outside of Christianity bother reading the Bible in the depth you have. As our discussion was concerning the Bibles contents one must have absorbed a great deal of it to sucessfully opinionate. You should feel chuffed that you can go head to head with those who orientate their lives around those books, not alone.
Anyhow. Pax? Shall we draw the line? I know you do not read the Trinity when reading the Bible, but you could at least accept that I for one, do.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Fljotsdale]

Of course I accept that you do, Yorick!
It has never been my aim to denigrate your beliefs - I just honestly believe - no, I KNOW - that the bible does not teach the Trinity!
I think you are a fine man and I respect you a lot, as you know.

As for Pax and drawing a line: Do you mean you don't want me to reply to your last post to me? If you prefer to leave it at that, then ok. But there is peace between us anyway, whether I reply or not, right?

And Yorick, it isn't only non-christians who know nothing about the bible! The vast majority of Christians - even church-going Christians - are as ignorant of it's contents as the average Neanderthal!

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[tracey]

okay. I haven't ignored the debates, i've read them and fljots is correct. I too, have read and studied the bible in some considerable depth over a number of years. I have also been interested and intrigued by the history of the christian church(S)and the theological discussions and debates that have occurred over time. however, my interest is merely idle curiosity, much as my fascination of quantum theory. a hobby. I don't believe that any of my miniscule post can be described as wild speculation - it was a swift reply to fljots, a lone voice.

anyway, festivals such as christmas and easter stem from an awfully long way back, my love. easter, eggs and bunnies, yes, that's sooo jesus. did they have chocolate back then? and rabbits? i thought they were fertility symbols, oh, dear, have i got the wrong end of the stick again? oops, silly me. christmas, well now, seem to remember something roman - natalis solis invicti - the birth of the invincible sun, celebrated on the shortest day of winter and history and the mingling of faiths tells the rest.

i reject and classify the bible as appaulling by my own moral yardstick. your reference to judeo-christian laws and principles is highly entertaining - human rights, hmmmm, don't seem to remember many of those being respected much. whole tribes of people chucked out of their own land and slaughtered like pigs - hey, nice one god. it was also not very bright to be a woman either. i think you'll find that the struggle for equality, which is still not won, came from women. i doubt we'd have the vote yet if the majority still believed in the bible. also, the list of christian humanity is endless, isn't it? let's see, now, the crusades, slavery, the raj, the blessing of arms, church greed, the missionaries, i could go on...... but the list is endless and gets worse.

my major problem with all religion(S) is that it robs people of the ability to think for themselves.

anyway, you can search as long as you like - all you're going to find in the bible is a set of different translations, skewed by time and linguistic change.

oh. and i wasn't assuming idiocy on your part yorick - that would seem to be you're own conclusion (otherwise why mention it?) i merely pointed out that the concept of the trinity(ies) is one from 'outside' of biblical texts although not biblical teaching. and here lies the crux of your debate. dogma and tradition become a habit!

[Fljotsdale]

No, please don't assume idiocy on Yorick's part, Tracey! He is anything but, and has a good knowledge of the bible - even if we don't agree on the Trinity doctrine.
The points you make regarding the past failings - to say the least of it! - of the Christian church are valid, (not much love and peace involved was there? Not much of the Christlike personality, eh?) as are your references to the paganism involved in Christian festivals. In fact, Christianity is stuffed full of pagan beliefs. It seems to have adopted everthing the rest of the world abandoned...a kind of rag-bag of odds and ends nobody else wanted any more - like the Pope adopting the pagan title Pontifex Maximus when it was dropped by the rulers of the day...
But I stray from the point... This thread is about the bible, not about Christianity!

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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 07-18-2001).]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Of course I accept that you do, Yorick! It has never been my aim to denigrate your beliefs - I just honestly believe - no, I KNOW - that the bible does not teach the Trinity!

You forgot to add a "to me" Fljotsdale. "The Bible does not teach the Trinity to me" I keep saying till I'm blue in the face that it does teach it to ME! You say you accept my position, but an absolute statement like that is what started us off in the first place....

You and I could go and see a master musician. You might walk away beeing taught nothing by him - for whatever reason - while I may be learn some interesting new method of playing or groove construction. It all depends on what our focus is, and what we are looking for that determines our reception does it not?

Anyhow the respect is mutual Fljotsdale.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[John D Harris]

Ladies there are no Christian festivals. Where is the book, chapter, and verse for the festivals? Please don't assume that because some men who happened to call themselves Christian, (their Christianity I'll leave for God to decide) want to celebrate a certain day does not make that day a Christian festival. Romans 14 makes that point very clear, if you decide to celebrate a day do so for the Lord if you decide not to celebrate a day do so for the Lord in either case that is between you and God.(paraphased by me)
As for the human rights issue do not make the MISTAKE of assuming that men speak FOR God. The prophets of old Spoke only what God revealed to them.
As for your list of things that have happened in the past, The logic is faulty. Just because some people call themselves this or that does not make it so. Just because some one does something and claims that it is for this reason or that reason doen't make it so. Talk is cheap. To lump everyone together is doing the same type of thing that you are complaining about. Is it right to assume that because I'm from Alabama that I'm racist? Is it right to assume that because I'm a man that I'm Sexist? Is it right to assume that because I'm a Christian I can't think for myself?

On a seperate issue about those wonderful tribes of people that where kicked out. They were not the first people in the "new world" the new evidence is that the first people where from downunder a they sailed across the Pacific. They were here for 1,000's of years before the asian migration across the land bridge. The Aboriginies (sp?)were KILLED OFF by the new invaders around 7,000-9,000 B.C.(if I remember correctly) The only surviving Aboriginal gene pool of sorts was at the tip of South America. I just got through watching a History Channel show on this subject Monday night You can probibaly go to their web site and still find the referance for the show.

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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[Yorick]

Tracey this is the last time I will reply to a post of yours that contains demeaning language. A bit more politeness of tone when dealing with a sensative subject wouldn't hurt. How would you feel if I launched in and wrote off the beliefs which you centred your life around? Disagree by all means - I couldn't care what you think - but there is a way of using language that puts across a point without being condescending. It is called tact.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracey:
okay. I haven't ignored the debates, i've read them and fljots is correct. I too, have read and studied the bible in some considerable depth over a number of years. I have also been interested and intrigued by the history of the christian church(S)and the theological discussions and debates that have occurred over time. however, my interest is merely idle curiosity, much as my fascination of quantum theory. a hobby. I don't believe that any of my miniscule post can be described as wild speculation - it was a swift reply to fljots, a lone voice.

Correct in your opinion Tracey. And that is all you present. I too have read and studied the Bible in some considerable depth over a number of years. I have also been interested and intrigued by the history of the Christian Church and it's myriad denominations, and the theological discussions and debates that have occurred over time. It appears that your credentials are included in mine Tracey. Where does that leave us?

Your postings were wildly speculative because you substanciated nothing. No details, no source, no names, just broad generalisations.

anyway, festivals such as christmas and easter stem from an awfully long way back, my love. easter, eggs and bunnies, yes, that's sooo jesus. did they have chocolate back then? and rabbits? i thought they were fertility symbols, oh, dear, have i got the wrong end of the stick again? oops, silly me. christmas, well now, seem to remember something roman - natalis solis invicti - the birth of the invincible sun, celebrated on the shortest day of winter and history and the mingling of faiths tells the rest.

Condescention all round. Tracey does one culture have a monopoly on a particular day? With all the religions and cultures around you'd think that more than one would have picked the Winter Solstice to celebrate something.

Re. Easter, the Easter bunny and eggs have nothing to do with Easter. In the Christian home I was brought up in eggs were an afterthought with no significance whatsoever. Easter is the celebration for Christians of Jesus rising from death. If people give eggs on the same day as part of an another festival who cares? As I stated Passover was celebrated by the Jews on that day since the time of Moses. The Jews still celebrate Passover. Christians chose to celebrate the resurrection instead. I notice you failed to name the 'pagan' festival you believe Easter incorperated.

Re Christmas. I grew up celebrating Christmas in summer. The middle of summer was in the middle of January. No winter or summer solstice celebrations for me.


i reject and classify the bible as appaulling by my own moral yardstick. your reference to judeo-christian laws and principles is highly entertaining - human rights, hmmmm, don't seem to remember many of those being respected much. whole tribes of people chucked out of their own land and slaughtered like pigs - hey, nice one god. it was also not very bright to be a woman either. i think you'll find that the struggle for equality, which is still not won, came from women. i doubt we'd have the vote yet if the majority still believed in the bible. also, the list of christian humanity is endless, isn't it? let's see, now, the crusades, slavery, the raj, the blessing of arms, church greed, the missionaries, i could go on...... but the list is endless and gets worse.

Highly entertaining it may be, but factual it is. Western society is based on Judeo-Christian principles. Justice, an eye for an eye. Mercy, the parbles Jesus used regarding merciful leaders, plus the many times God displayed mercy and forgiveness. Don't murder, or commit adultery, don't steal, etc etc. Religions directly challenge human nature and seek to curb instict. "Turn the other cheek" defies every rationale in the survival instruction manual, yet is necessary for world peace. Religion ideals are enshrined in the U.S., Australian and to my knowledge British constitution.

Lets look at life without religion shall we? Law of the jungle. The strong survive and the weak perish. The Bible commanded Jews to leave parts of their crops unharvested so the poor could eat.

"All are created free and equal"? Well nonreligious evolution theory for a start is why South Africa passed a law circa 1930 that stated the Bantu was a human being. What were they before? They were allowed to be hunted that's for sure. I have read the press transcript with my own eyes and was lost for words.
The Australian Aboriginie was considered further down the evolutionary chain and so were subjected to ignorant mistreatment. The Christian Bible teaches "do unto others", defines religion as taking care of the sick and old, preaches non judgementalism ("do not judge", and "let he who is without sin cast the first stone") and extols patience, kindness and gentleness as virtues. None of these are necessary for jungle survival, and none come naturally. All are taught or learnt behaviours.

Regarding peoples being slaughtered like pigs. What instances are you talking about? Back up your claims. As you have not I can only assume a couple of examples which I'll address, but firstly, how many humans get pissed off with humanity? How many humans scream for a serial rapist or child molester to be executed? By all accounts Sodom housed numbers of such, and God had enough. What's your issue their? A Creator can't destroy their handiwork if it displeases them? What did the people of Sodom do to earn the right to be born? What do any of us do? How can we curse our misfortune, when we come into the world as blubbering vegetables who cannot walk, talk, read, or feed ourselves. Everything is a step up from there is it not? I know if my journey suddenly ends tonight, I will know I had one hell of a ride.

When observing this though, you also see mercy. God leaving Nineveh alone, and forgiving the Hebrews time and again for proverbially slapping him in the face. You see God providing an "out" so that huamns can be with God, without God changing his law. A Christian is removed from that law.


my major problem with all religion(S) is that it robs people of the ability to think for themselves.

Belief in God requires abstract thought. Non belief does not. A cat or mongoose for example does not believe in God.
Religion requires farsight. Hypothesising about events to come. Not even a Chimpanze hypothesises alternate scenarios.
It requires faith, which entails persistence - conscious control over belief. Nonbelieve requires no conscious choice. A Koala has not made a conscious religious choice.
Choosing one faith over another - especially in Singapore where I have been with new Christians who have left Buddhism in droves - requires enourmous will if it is contrary to the familys historical faith. Isolation, beatings and expulsion often result. These people are not thinking for themselves?

Truly excercised Christianity is a liberation. It opens the mind. The world becomes a work of art. Possiblilities are endless. No problem is too large. An endless source for creative inspiration is attained. Historically the church has been a bastion of creativity and knowledge, from the preservist Monks who guarded and kept much knowledge during the dark ages and music - which is still reproduced today and uses incredibly emotionally powerful language - through to the Black Gospel and Blues musicians who have influenced modern music at its core.

To have a relationship with Christ requires relationship skills - communication, humility, an open mind, respect. All these use the mental faculties, and are encouraged when relating with others. Growing in that relationship requires constantr revision, new knowledge, interaction with others and exploration of creation.

What proof do you have that religions stop people from thinking for themselves? By setting down a moral code? People constantly choose whether to keep that code or not. Without the code there is no choice and no thought. You make an extremely broad brushstroke by claiming all religions do such a thing.


anyway, you can search as long as you like - all you're going to find in the bible is a set of different translations, skewed by time and linguistic change. That is still in Fljoysdales words, the most authenticated set of books around. Works of a similar age, with less substanciations are accepted without question. Additionally, some denominations require their ministers to know ancient Greek and Hebrew. In this way a Preacher should be seen as a Translator and Context-giver rather than a Guru as in say Hinduism.

oh. and i wasn't assuming idiocy on your part yorick - that would seem to be you're own conclusion (otherwise why mention it?) i merely pointed out that the concept of the trinity(ies) is one from 'outside' of biblical texts although not biblical teaching. and here lies the crux of your debate. dogma and tradition become a habit!

No you "merely called relgious belivers decisions to believe "laughable".

Regarding your conclusion about the Trinity, show me a prior example. I mentioned The Hindu three, the Creator, Destroyer and Preserver, but they are very seperate. They are joined only inasmuch as everything is joined. The Buddhist/Toaist/Confucionist one way/three ways is a convergence of ideas rather than personas. I am happy to be proven wrong as it is irrelevant to the discussion anyhow. Whether a concept exists prior does not automatically mean it was incorporated. Every culture for example has a creation myth, and a fair number have a flood myth. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? However the fact that you fail to substanciate your claim is what is "entertaining".

Re Dogma/Tradition, yes they do, which is why there are constant breakaway denaminations, that do away with sacrements, traditions and old habits, only to in time replace them with their own new ones. An central idea trancends such however, and this is at Christianitys heart. All new denominations agree about the Trinity and about Salvation. This is not habit. Habit is going to confessions or making the sign of a cross when you pray. Or turning the light off before you sleep, having three meals a day, or working from 9 to 5.


Oh Fljotsdale, I find it interesting that you would call Christianity an amalgam BTW. Unlike Hinduism which is a clear example of a religion absorbing others, Christianity still has one God and a very "narrow road" to reaching him. Hinduism by comparison absorbed every new God, and every new belief, except Christianity it seems! Compared to the other religions Christianity is quite unique in both ethos and practice. Every where else in nature we find that uniqueness is born of isolation. (Indonesian island flora and fauna, the Australian flora and fauna etc) I would assume this to be the case with Christianity too.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!