Showdown at IWD Corral: Slings Vs. Darts

[ZFR]

Just to clarify..

STR does affect thrown weapons:
_throwing daggers.
_throwing axes.

STR does not affect missile weapons:
_bow
_crossbow
_Sling
_dart (dont ask me why dart is considered missile and not thrown).

This is how it is in DnD rules, and how it got implemented in BG series, and this is what the manual says for IWD.

[NobleNick]

EDIT: I justs re-read your post and saw how you verified the damage.
hmmm... that's strange. I verified in BG1 and BG2 and in both STR doesnt affect damage of any ranged weapon.
And the IWD manual also says that.

When I come home I'll verify how it was implemented in-game. If it indeed does, it's a bug.

ZFR,

Yes, as you noticed, the STR claim comes from in-game data, NOT an analysis of the official rules or literature:

------------------------------------------------------------
CLVL = 7; 3 PP in Missile

For STR = 17 and Sling+1 -----> Dmg. = 1D4 + 6
For STR = 18/50 and Sling+1 --> Dmg. = 1D4 + 8
For STR = 19 and Sling+1 -----> Dmg. = 1D4 + 12
------------------------------------------------------------

Now I understand why you and ister would have believed IWD slings weren't that good: You guys read the rules, and you've played BG1 and BG1 follows the rules! Looks like we have a bug; and a lovely one at that.

Interesting points on the stacking and on the ammo versus launcher for determining whether a weapon is effective. I am slowly rising above the confusion I've always had on the subject. So, test me: A Fighter armed with +2 Sling and +1 bullet would get "weapon ineffective" when attacking an enemy that required +2 to hit. But against an enemy that only required normal or +1 weapons, the sling (with +1 bullet) would be effective; and the THAC0 bonus from weapon, only, would be 2 + 1 = 3 point THAC0 bonus. Right?

@ ister: Heh, heh, heh. Roleplayers' Druids and Mages are weaklings; but I re-roll until ALL my characters have STR=DEX=CON=MAXIMUM, because I am a stinking powergamer.

Your point on Druids, Mages and low level Fighters is valid; but I would DC the Druid and the Mage with a Fighter. And in an IWD/HoW game, a Fighter will spend less than 1/6 of the game below F(7). And the only Fighter that can NOT use Bows and CAN use Darts, is one being groomed for Fighter/Druid. For this build you have a very valid point about using Darts early in the game: Both weapons use the same PP category. I am sure a Fighter(3) with 2 PP in Missiles would do at least as good with Darts, and there is no penalty for switching. Hmmm.... Very good point. A Fighter/Druid is the only powergamer build that could benefit from that, but he could benefit...

I never thought about whether the statistical propensity of larger damage weapons to waste more damage would affect the outcome of a fight. I don't think it does, because, within any given fight, the damage is not wasted until AFTER the opponent dies. Hmmm... Not sure of my answer. What about multiple opponents? ...Will have to think more on this...

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 06-09-2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[ister]

Originally posted by NobleNick: @ ister: Heh, heh, heh. Roleplayers' Druids and Mages are weaklings; but I re-roll until ALL my characters have STR=DEX=CON=MAXIMUM, because I am a stinking powergamer.

Even with a strength of flat 18 the darts have a pretty decent advantage. And that is what you would have for a SC druid or mage if you're a half-assed powergamer like me - you want to powergame, but under some arbitrary constraints.

Your point on Druids, Mages and low level Fighters is valid; but I would DC the Druid and the Mage with a Fighter. And in an IWD/HoW game, a Fighter will spend less than 1/6 of the game below F(7). And the only Fighter that can NOT use Bows and CAN use Darts, is one being groomed for Fighter/Druid. For this build you have a very valid point about using Darts early in the game: Both weapons use the same PP category. I am sure a Fighter(3) with 2 PP in Missiles would do at least as good with Darts, and there is no penalty for switching. Hmmm.... Very good point. A Fighter/Druid is the only powergamer build that could benefit from that, but he could benefit...

I think that a Fighter -> Cleric would also be a vaild powergame choice, and that character could also benefit at least until Kuldahar, and possibly a little longer by using darts rather than slings. She won't be able to use the darts after DC, but as a fighter she can.

I never thought about whether the statistical propensity of larger damage weapons to waste more damage would affect the outcome of a fight. I don't think it does, because, within any given fight, the damage is not wasted until AFTER the opponent dies. Hmmm... Not sure of my answer. What about multiple opponents? ...Will have to think more on this...

Well it's a pretty minor point. It's only important if the opponents are VERY evenly matched. But the damage from the dart is much less risky than that of the sling simply because it comes in smaller increments. Most of the battles that you fight you expect to win, so it is worth giving up some expected damage (return on investment) in exchange for a more reliable kill (risk).

I do wonder about one other thing. Now that you've discovered the previously unknown powers of slings, how about the following.

Two fighters. 19 STR, max PPs in a weapon, level 15. +2 long bow with +2 arrows vs +2 sling with +2 bullets. Who wins?

APR isn't that much of an advantage for the archer. And the slinger has a significant advantage in damage per hit (6 points I think)

And if the archer wins that one, which giant strength potion puts the slinger on an even footing with the archer?

edit: And ranger dual cleric is an obvious powergamer choice, and would also be better off using darts at low levels.

[ 06-09-2005, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: ister ]

[Azred]

Originally posted by JrKASperov: Actually I think STR should affect ALL throwable weapons, not only because it's so in DnD rules, and is logical (the harder you can throw, the harder it hits), but also to rebalance the throwable weapons. A bow in current BG/IWD always outshines other ranged weapons.

Of course, in the "real" world one would have to worry about wind resistance limiting the amount of force with which an object is thrown, which would result in limiting its ability to cause damage. A simple wind-tunnel test will show an object's maximum velocity by measuring the wind speed at which an object is pushed backwards.

I just might throw some confusion into the mix by creating darts that outperform slings, crossbows, and regular bows. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[JrKASperov]

You are right Azred, but my estimation is that especially for aerodynamic objects like bullets and darts, that maximum velocity will be quite high. I think high enough for additional strength bonuses.

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by ister: I think that a Fighter -> Cleric would also be a vaild powergame choice, and that character could also benefit at least until Kuldahar, and possibly a little longer by using darts rather than slings. She won't be able to use the darts after DC, but as a fighter she can.

Acck! How did I miss that? Yes, of course you are correct, the DC F/C would look substantially the same as the DC F/D before the DC.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 06-13-2005, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[seefree22]

I know this is an old thread, but I was wondering if anyone ever confirmed that throwing daggers and axes get a strength bonus when used. Slings do, darts don't this string concludes, and I assume bows and crossbows don't. Any data about daggers/axes? Thanks!

[Dundee Slaytern]

Daggers and Axes do.

[Azred]

A bow or crossbow can...if you create one that way.

Darts would probably be much better if combined with some other effect such as poison or hold. Don't darts of wounding and paralysis already exist? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] I usually just sell them, so I don't recall.

[img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] Where is NobleNick these days, anyway?

[Kyrvias]

Over at the Morrowind Forums. He's quite... immersed in the game...