Satanism

[Yorick]

I never said it was destructive Chewbacca. [img]smile.gif[/img]

My issue with it is this. What you describe is a means to an end, not an end in itself. A way of achieving a realisation, and a state of being.

I'm fully aware that you can grab bits and pieces of an ideology to serve your own ends, but I choose to look at the worldview in it's entirety. All the bits make up a whole.

The meditative path you are describing hinges on the idea that the physical world is an illusion does it not? Truth is found within, when one blocks out the physical world, for we can't rely on our senses.

I prefer to see the world as actually existing, with dreams being subconcious emotions and issues being worked through, rather than windows to reality (as in Amerindian belief).

Rather than shutting out the physical world, I seek to embrace it, and balance that experience with reflection, introspection, and prayer.

Rather than avoiding love, or cherishing moments, things, places etc as the Buddha advocates, I seek to experience these things, knowing they are impermanent, or momentary. Balancing my expectation with reality, rather than restricting my experiences or emotional engagement.

I see Buddhism as a limitation on individuals. My quarrel is not with the individual Buddhist, but with the ideology. I care about you guys. The Buddhists I know, I want to shake and share the love of Christ with. Out of care!

Chewbacca, I respect your beliefs. Your amalgam of shamanistic, Buddhist thinking. I respect you as a person of faith. If you want to tell me to take my care and love and shove it up my arse, so be it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But please don't mistake my motives. I acknowledge I could be wrong and allow for that possibility. But I do know, that I have a peace, a happiness, and an emotional healing in my life from knowing Christ.

If your faith is working for you, great! I'd never try and take something that fills you away.

If however there is a hole, a deep seated feeling of emptiness, I'd pray you find the God I know. The love he gives.

Anyway, have a good day/night Chewbacca [img]smile.gif[/img]

[caleb]

"I see Buddhism as a limitation on individuals." I see all organized religions as a limitation on individuals

[Yorick]

Originally posted by caleb: "I see Buddhism as a limitation on individuals." I see all organized religions as a limitation on individuals

O.k. I should rephrase that.

If I followed Buddhism, I would find it restrictive and bleak. With my Christian faith, my life has become more liberated and optimistic.

I can only speak for myself after all.

[Lifetime]

To paraphrase what someone else said, "having a garage doesnt make you a Porche owner anymore than going to church makes you a Christian"
A Christian is not what he/she is because he goes to church every sunday and prays regularly. There are many churchgoers that call themselves Christians but have really no claim to the name because they haven't recieved the Lord Jesus Christ into their lives, and prefer to live lives where they are'nt "controlled" by morals or values, or rather live by their own set of morals and values, which might not be in accordance to what the church preaches.
A person like that converting to Buddhism? Unsurprising, considering they are nothing but Christians in name and name only.
And Yorick, to back up that thing about Christians being persecuted in their own homes in traditional Singapore homes, I have many friends encountering that same prejudice. I have a friend who has had to struggle with her parents every weekend to let her go to church, because her parents were Chinese-educated Buddhists. Is this an example of Buddhists in general? Who stifle their children that they cannot experience other religions as they wish? It would almost seem like Buddhism preaches an even more oppressive way of life than Christianity does. Does any child deserve to be mistreated by his/her parents because of religious belief? To be scolded, shouted at, kicked out of the home, just because he refuses to kneel and bow before an altar? What a crock..

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Lifetime: To paraphrase what someone else said, "having a garage doesnt make you a Porche owner anymore than going to church makes you a Christian" A Christian is not what he/she is because he goes to church every sunday and prays regularly. There are many churchgoers that call themselves Christians but have really no claim to the name because they haven't recieved the Lord Jesus Christ into their lives, and prefer to live lives where they are'nt "controlled" by morals or values, or rather live by their own set of morals and values, which might not be in accordance to what the church preaches. A person like that converting to Buddhism? Unsurprising, considering they are nothing but Christians in name and name only. And Yorick, to back up that thing about Christians being persecuted in their own homes in traditional Singapore homes, I have many friends encountering that same prejudice. I have a friend who has had to struggle with her parents every weekend to let her go to church, because her parents were Chinese-educated Buddhists. Is this an example of Buddhists in general? Who stifle their children that they cannot experience other religions as they wish? It would almost seem like Buddhism preaches an even more oppressive way of life than Christianity does. Does any child deserve to be mistreated by his/her parents because of religious belief? To be scolded, shouted at, kicked out of the home, just because he refuses to kneel and bow before an altar? What a crock..

Wow.

Well said Lifetime. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Lifetime: To paraphrase what someone else said, "having a garage doesnt make you a Porche owner anymore than going to church makes you a Christian" A Christian is not what he/she is because he goes to church every sunday and prays regularly. There are many churchgoers that call themselves Christians but have really no claim to the name because they haven't recieved the Lord Jesus Christ into their lives, and prefer to live lives where they are'nt "controlled" by morals or values, or rather live by their own set of morals and values, which might not be in accordance to what the church preaches. A person like that converting to Buddhism? Unsurprising, considering they are nothing but Christians in name and name only. And Yorick, to back up that thing about Christians being persecuted in their own homes in traditional Singapore homes, I have many friends encountering that same prejudice. I have a friend who has had to struggle with her parents every weekend to let her go to church, because her parents were Chinese-educated Buddhists. Is this an example of Buddhists in general? Who stifle their children that they cannot experience other religions as they wish? It would almost seem like Buddhism preaches an even more oppressive way of life than Christianity does. Does any child deserve to be mistreated by his/her parents because of religious belief? To be scolded, shouted at, kicked out of the home, just because he refuses to kneel and bow before an altar? What a crock..

this parental behavior sounds like more of a cultural trait than a religious one. No where in buddist doctrine is there any sort of rule, commandment, by-law, obligation or punishment for not being a buddist.

Like christians, buddists may feel an individual that leaves their particular path may not have felt the impact or expirience that comes with long term practice of achieving enlightenment. Unlike christianity, their is no inherent punishment by rule or rede in buddism that forbids the practice of other religions or spiritual paths. Unfortunatly, buddism, like any belief system, is subject to human ego. These people can twist beliefs, subjecting their beliefs upon others in a game of power and control. Ironicly these are the types of tendencies that buddists attempts to abolish through meditation.

[Chewbacca]

Imo It should be rather easy to learn respect of someone elses beliefs. Understanding them from a holistic perspective is entirely different.
I apologize if this seems dragged out but my dsl comes and goes as it pleases certain weeks. Yorrick, please allow me to clarify and respond:

My issue with it is this. What you describe is a means to an end, not an end in itself. A way of achieving a realisation, and a state of being.

Actually I describe a way of living, personal transformation and self knowledge. No more than just about any religion can offer. An example of a means to an end is forgiving yourself before doing something you know is wrong.

I'm fully aware that you can grab bits and pieces of an ideology to serve your own ends, but I choose to look at the worldview in it's entirety. All the bits make up a whole.

Yes the interconnectivness of all things, and how every thing has its place in the perfection of creation, including the above supposition of what I grab to serve my own needs.

The meditative path you are describing hinges on the idea that the physical world is an illusion does it not? Truth is found within, when one blocks out the physical world, for we can't rely on our senses.

Thats not what I described and since you asked...Illusion is found within, along with enlightenemnt. What is egotistically believed about oneself, loved ones and the world around can be illusionary. What is believed is the transitory nature of physical reality, permanence of phsyical life is an illusion. Living and physical things grow, die, and change and are created and destroyed. Simple common sense.
Like a well oiled machine physical existance changes and has its seasons. In the extremes of this view point inspires aesticism(sp) Causually speaking, enjoy what you have while you have it.
What is also believed is the physical world exists interconnected with unseen realms both inner and outer. The physical world is no less "real" than the spiritual. What is also believed is a persons stay in a physical shell is temporary, your body dies and it is natural. But ones self extends beyond death in both reality and perseption.

Rather than avoiding love, or cherishing moments, things, places etc as the Buddha advocates, I seek to experience these things, knowing they are impermanent, or momentary. Balancing my expectation with reality, rather than restricting my experiences or emotional engagement. I see Buddhism as a limitation on individuals. My quarrel is not with the individual Buddhist, but with the ideology. I care about you guys. The Buddhists I know, I want to shake and share the love of Christ with. Out of care!

There are no implied or obvious implications of not living life how buddah supposedly did. Accepting impermanence for what it is and living in the present is a healthy buddist perspective. There is no rule against love or anything for that matter. Only guidelines and karmic lessons to be interpreted individually in solitary meditation. Compassion is core to contemparary buddist belief.

Chewbacca, I respect your beliefs. Your amalgam of shamanistic, Buddhist thinking. I respect you as a person of faith. If you want to tell me to take my care and love and shove it up my arse, so be it. [img]smile.gif[/img] But please don't mistake my motives. I acknowledge I could be wrong and allow for that possibility. But I do know, that I have a peace, a happiness, and an emotional healing in my life from knowing Christ. If your faith is working for you, great! I'd never try and take something that fills you away. If however there is a hole, a deep seated feeling of emptiness, I'd pray you find the God I know. The love he gives. Anyway, have a good day/night Chewbacca [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB]

Yorrick,I am assuming that you only claim christianity for your religion and thats the only one you practice. It is dangerous and unwise to try to be authorative of a religion or belief system and make generalizations if you do not practice it yourself. I do say you picked a bit of the ideology inside buddism and try to make it all the ideology. Hopefully I have shared some deeper insight into pagan belief systems, although apparently I can only only digest bits and scraps to suit my own needs. I do respect your care, perhaps you should take some of it when it comes to religions besides your own. I dont seek to argue, I cant help but speak out against onesided critism. It helps that you maintain the possibility of being wrong. I respect your beliefs and your practice of worship, but I have little respect for some of your opinions. It is ironic that I acknowledge the peace and unconditional love of the consciousness of Christ every day, along with the same joyful compassion of Budda. Bet ya didnt know that and probably hadnt considered it a possibility. Although you are wrong in your opinion on the whole about buddism and my own beliefs, Excuse my bluntness, Yorrick, No love lost. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-25-2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: this parental behavior sounds like more of a cultural trait than a religious one. No where in buddist doctrine is there any sort of rule, commandment, by-law, obligation or punishment for not being a buddist. Like christians, buddists may feel an individual that leaves their particular path may not have felt the impact or expirience that comes with long term practice of achieving enlightenment. Unlike christianity, their is no inherent punishment by rule or rede in buddism that forbids the practice of other religions or spiritual paths. Unfortunatly, buddism, like any belief system, is subject to human ego. These people can twist beliefs, subjecting their beliefs upon others in a game of power and control. Ironicly these are the types of tendencies that buddists attempts to abolish through meditation.

I'm told, the Chinese concerned believe you're born Buddhist. Buddhism has incorperated and been incorperated into and by, different relgions and worldviews.

Aside from the major schism between Mahayana and Theravada, we have Tantric influenced Buddhism, the Chinese Religion, which is Buddhism, Taoism and Confucionism. The Japanese have their own strands, and the Lamaism of Tibet, who believe the sitting Dalai Lama to be an incarnation of the Buddha.

The problem I have with that concept is that for starters Theravadans believe Buddha attained Nirvana. The whole point of Buddhism is about escaping the cycle of rebirths, yet Lamiasts believe he's still caught in it.

Also the posts of Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama were established by the Chinese government. Which is why we have the 'ratification' dispute over the Panchen (the no 2 Lama), currently raging between the now Communist government, and the Dalai Lama.

Regardless, it's said that only a Buddhist Monk can attain Nirvana. All a westerner can do is hope to be born a Buddhist Monk in the next life.

Oh, now the point of this (I forgot) is that with Buddhism, and especially Hinduism, one can practice any relgion they like as long as they still call themselves Hindu and still acknowledge the pantheistic nature of their beliefs.

Christianity is totally different. Disregards reincarnation, karma and pantheism. I know of Hindus and Sikhs in New York disowned and reviled by their families for finding Christ. The aforementioned Singaporeans have already been discussed.

As far as culture goes, where does culture end and religion start with Hinduism and Buddhism? The most spoken native language in India is Hindi. To be a Hindu, involves rituals that are inherant to the culture, as it is with Buddhism.

Certainly Mao's horrific 'cultural revolution' indicates the merger of culture and religion.

[Yorick]

The fact that you've grabbed bit's and pieces actually means you've created a new faith, rather than incorperating anything.

I noticed in an earlier post you said:
The eventual goal of a buddist is not self-annihalation, but self actualization, true individuality

Yet as you can read in my cuts, that the goal is the death of individuality. Death of the ego. Oneness with the universe.

BTW. When we die, our bodies become one with the earth don't they? Ashes to ash, dust to dust?

This is the spiritual equivialent.

Anyhow, your statement, while declaring what you believe, is at odds with what Buddha taught.

Similarly you say you've incorporated Christs teachings into your belief system.

Christians do not follow Christ because of what he taught, but becasue of what he DID. His death and ressurection are the cause of our love and devotion, not his teachings. Yes they help us, and guide us, but we believe we have an ongoing relationship with Christ.

Thus, merely incorperating his teachings, is not the same thing as accepting him into your life.

Can you not see this?

I'm not attacking you for holding those beliefs. It's great you do. I'm glad it works for you.

What I'm attacking is the notion that you are somehow practicing all these faiths by merging them.

I believe, as I've pointed out, that you've made up your own faith. [img]smile.gif[/img] so let's call a spade a spade.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Yorrick,I am assuming that you only claim christianity for your religion and thats the only one you practice. It is dangerous and unwise to try to be authorative of a religion or belief system and make generalizations if you do not practice it yourself.

I strongly disagree with this statement Chewbacca. It disregards the search an individual can undertake. Yes I have a relationship with Christ. But when I was investigating Buddhism, I was doing so with an open mind, in an effort to find truth.

Why, because I've rejected it does this exclude me from understanding it? I had to understand it to reject it! Yes an individuals belief is a personal issue, but when we are talking about Buddhism, we are talking about the teachings of Siddartha, which have manifested in the collective practice of the various strands of Buddhism in the world.

I read Buddhas teachings. I observed how he changed his philosophies as he went, what words of wisdom he gave his followers.

I rejected it because I understood it. By disregarding my right to an opinion, you disregard my own spiritual search.

I was born the son of a Christian minister. As an adolescant, I was plagued by doubts that my faith was inherited, and not my own.

I intentionally set out to disregard my upbringing, and honestly look at all the worlds major religions, to discover truth.

I had major problems with Christianity. My imperfect father was a Preacher! Even now, I find it difficult listening to Preachers. Every bone in my body is set to "reject" mode. Critical mode. "Pull apart every inconsistency" mode. I find it hard to respect ministers.

It is precisely the honesty of my search that gives me such certainty NOW. I know, there is no other path I'd want to be walking. I KNOW this is the path for me, the one that allows me to relate to God. The path that gives me joy and happiness. Peace and comfort. None of the others did that!

Am I a bastard for believing this? For checking these out and drawing such conclusions? Why is this such a bad thing? Why is it impossible?

Because you disagree????

[ 05-26-2002, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Chewbacca]

Hmm I know witches, taosist, and buddists that have been disowned or become estranged with their parents becuase they didnt choose the christianity they were raised in. My point is I wont blame christianity on the whole for the failings of some. Why blame buddists on the whole becuase some of them in china, or singpore forbid their children christianity when some christians here in america forbid their kids buddism. Every religion has its egotists and egotistical beliefs.

I have a personal example. In Alabama, when I was a teenager, My own mother refused to become Mormon after my Dad did, so the church women told her she and her children, who also refused mormonism are demons and was told we needed to be saved in the name of jesus christ or persih for eternity in hell. The church males had daily prayer sessions with my dad, telling him that only families get into heaven and if his wife and four kids didnt get baptized we would all go to hell.

The moral: all religions have egotist waiting to prey on the weak and fearful on a mission to convert and force beleifs on other people. I call such a type of person a spiritual or religious egotist. Parents try to control children, social pressure from a church, peer group, or individual. On a broader scale, Dont even get me started on tele-evangelists. Leaching money off people cause god said to do it. Sheesh!

And another thing...I work in the heart of Boston, The amount of wackos passing out doomsday material and "be saved or burn" literature is down right funny. Today alone in Downtown Crossing: The jehovahs witnesses, hari krishnas, baptist preachers, a crazy guy wearing a body sign with a picture of an aborted fetus on it, another crazy guy reading out of the bible in the middle of the street at the top of his lungs! Another guy offering the gosepel, his feet littered with pamplets that peoele refuse when he lunged it at them, hehehe! All of them wasting thier time as far as I'm concerned. There nothing wrong with the religions on the whole, just some of the "practioners".

Its one thing to make beliefs available to share in a mutual cordial manner, but one must remember that beliefs are not opinions or facts. They are purely subjective to the believer. The idea that a persons beliefs are personal and sacred is lost to the people afflicted with religious ego, whatever religion, buddist, christian, whatever.