Cold Wights

[Calagari]

I read past posts about level 2 of Dragons Eye. It was said that the cold wights were easy XP. That they had low hp and were easy kills. Something must have changed big time because these guys are kicking my butt. I lead them back to the doorway so it is a fast escape when I need it. I use hand melee weapons as they seem to be the most effective. But still it takes many tries to finally get them. Usually my mages kill them with fire spells.

Am I missing something here? Is there an easier way to kill these than what I am doing?

[Stratos]

Cold Wights are easy xp, IF you're well protected and a good fighter. Try equip a tank with a good weapon and armour, and let him take them on. Unprotected characters can die fairly quickly.

[Calagari]

I have a level 5 fighter/cleric for the lead man. He has plate + 1 and a weapon + 1. The other 2 fighters edited part LET ME Clarify 1 is a Pure Fighter Dwarf Tank, The Other is a Pure RANGER edited part - rangers are similarily equipped but have weapons + 2 all this was found loot. The sheer amount of wights overwhelm my party. Could this be because I have HOW installed that they are more difficult to kill?
Once after I had the initial talk with the big skeleton I managed to see my whole party fall except my lead fighter. He was taking almost no damage standing right at the door. he killed them all with only a little damage. Still this was one tough fight. Difficulty leve is set at normal.
So I ask has this changed? I don't think these are easy kills at all. Compared to lizardmen they are quite hard to kill.

Originally posted by Stratos: Cold Wights are easy xp, IF you're well protected and a good fighter. Try equip a tank with a good weapon and armour, and let him take them on. Unprotected characters can die fairly quickly.

[ 10-13-2004, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Calagari ]

[Aerich]

That's level 3 of Dragon's Eye, right? The entrance is, IMO, the toughest fight on the level, because it's harder to prepare the battlefield. HoW makes it slightly more difficult because of the Call to Arms feature, which draws all the enemies within a certain radius once ONE enemy sights you. That can lead to overwhelming odds, but it's not unbeatable.

You have to shorten the odds - cast hindering spells like Entangle or Web in front of your party, far enough away that you don't get caught in them. Have party-affecting spells like Protection From Evil 10' cast on your party before you enter the level. Protection from Fire is good to have on your lead character(s) so that your mage can Fireball away. Try doubling or tripling up attacks on one Wight - it's better to have one dead enemy and one at full strength than to have two at seriously wounded. Backline mages or clerics should have a good selection of distance spells - Magic Missile and Magical Stone are very good at finishing off injured wights. This is also a good area for Agannazar's Scorcher. A fire-protected lead character can move around with impunity and cause many wights to get caught in the scorcher.

If you have a decent druid, it will crush the wights. Moonblade does exceptional damage, but it's not even the best druid spell for the level. The spell Wall of Moonlight does great damage to evilly-aligned undead - once you're past the entrance, use one fire-protected character to scout ahead and draw a bunch of wights. Have a Wall of Moonlight cast between your party and the lead, then walk the (non-evil) lead character back across the Wall (the wights will follow across and get really hurt) and hammer the wights with a Fireball. It's a rare cold wight that can survive a Fireball + Wall of Moonlight combination.

If you decide to rest, find a protected alcove. Put all of your characters except one in the alcove and leave your best fighter out in front by a few steps. It helps to have Protection from Fire active. Then when the wights come at you, they'll likely go after your toughest, most protected character, and you can Fireball them with minimal risk. That should bring them down to manageable numbers.

This is a good area to rest - lots of monsters to test out your spell tactics.

Edit: If you are having a hard time using these tactics, you can also cast Haste on your party before you enter the level. It will eventually fatigue you, but it will help you take out the wights more quickly. You can retreat to the lower level and Mother Egenia to rest. Also don't be afraid of retreating mid-fight if one of your characters is close to dying.

[ 10-11-2004, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[NobleNick]

Calagari,

I have a level 5 fighter/cleric for the lead man. He has plate + 1 and a weapon + 1. The other 2 fighters - rangers are similarily equipped but have weapons + 2 all this was found loot. The sheer amount of wights overwhelm my party. Could this be because I have HOW installed that they are more difficult to kill?

Here, I think, is part of your problem. (And it is not HoW.) Now don't take this personally; but IMHO your front line needs help. Did I read that correctly, that you have two rangers and a Fighter/Cleric? And you have no Fighter (No, I mean a REAL Fighter, who has CON=18 and is getting 14 HP per level, and who can stack Proficiency Points more than 2 high in a weapon.); nor a Pally (although a Pally, good later in the game, is not much more help than a Ranger at this stage).

(If you DO have a dual class or straight class Fighter, with Proficiency Points stacked at least 3 high in a close-in weapon, then please ignore all the ranting I am about to do.)

I have a suggestion or two on how to beat this fight with your party as is; but first let me suggest that if you have 2 Rangers ditch at least one of them for a DUAL CLASS (DC) Fighter/Cleric, a DUAL CLASS Fighter/Mage, a DUAL CLASS Fighter/Druid, or, at the very least, a straight class Fighter. Notice that I did not say Multiclass: Multiclass Fighters cannot stack PP more than 2 high. You are taking this party into HoW? Then I highly recommend a DC Fighter[X]/Cleric, where X is 9, 12 or even 13; DEX=STR=CON=WIS=18; and you stack ALL you PP into EXACTLY ONE ranged and ONE close-in weapon. Also, your Fighter/Cleric and other warriors have DEX=18, right? Did you know that DEX has a tremendous effect on Armor Class (AC)? Yup. IIRC, a DEX of 18 gives you an AC bonus of 4.

This is a tough fight at the beginning, as was said, because of the sheer number of Wights. In my treks, I've had to reload this battle once or maybe twice, myself. (Now don't say, "Duh!" at the following.) The key to victory for your lightly clad party is quick kills. The longer you let Wights hang around, the more damage they dish out. Your problem is that even one excellent Fighter would be hacking away for an hour getting rid of This many Wights; and (if I read you correctly) instead of two or three rock-hard warriors, you've got NOBODY with the deep Fighter skills needed to dispatch this crowd quickly. So, since you don't have the Fighter power to do it all, I hope you brought a Mage with access to Evocation spells

There is no one "magic bullet" that will get you through (that I know of). Here are a few tips that, used together, should help your party make a better showing:

Tactic 1: Prior preparation. (I assume you have a Mage with access to Evocation (a.k.a. Invocation) spells and a Thief. Who is your sixth party member?) Have your Mage and Cleric memorize the spells that you will need specifically for this fight. Starting with your most well protected Fighter, cast Bless on all three of your front line, in very quick succession. Then quickly step through the door to meet the wights. If you have Prayer, cast it just after going through the door (or, better, just after summons are called).

**IF** you have the cash and don't have another definite goal for it --> If any of your warriors have 2PP or better skill in a +3 or better weapon that is available for sale, maybe now would be a good time to buy it. (Lonesome Road and The Giving Star are two buys that were a perfect fit for my party, and I found to have lasting value. Also, there is another... Oops! almost spoiled for ya.) If you have not otherwise been feeling pinched for firepower, save your money: I think you can get through this.

Tactic 2: Use the pause button A LOT! Think about what you are going to do. Think about what the enemy will likely do. Think about how to screw the enemy's future plans. Your current plan should always extend at least two rounds ahead of the action.

Tactic 3: Form a protective line. Put your best AC characters on the front line. Stay close to the door, and try to arrange your front line so that Wights cannot do an end run around it to get at your weaker characters.

Tactic 4: Summons. Bolster your protective line with summons. No, they won't do much in the way of killing Wights; but every Wight blow to a summoned monster is a blow not aimed at YOU!

Tactic 5: Concentrate fire. Have all your front line concentrate on the monster in front of the middle guy. Have your weaker members in back join in on the same enemy with ranged weapons, if you have any that are effective. If you correctly followed Tactic 3, and your summons are placed correctly, the front line of your core party should all be able to do this without moving position.

Tactic 6: Fireball. Well, I said no one magic bullet; but this comes close. With your protective line or summons bunching up most of the Wights, throw a Fireball at just the right place to toast ALL of them without toasting any of your party. Oh, yes, it is quite doable. It might take a few reloads and reshaping your front line, if you haven't been practicing this technique; but the sheer joy of getting 12 Wight screams out of one spell is worth it. When you get it right, throw another Fireball and see what 12 Wight deaths from one spell feels like!

Tactic 7: Skull Trap. If you have a second Mage with Skull Trap, set her to work sprinkling these about such that the blast radius just barely misses your front line. Like Fireball, this takes practice. Unlike Fireball, this MUST be done quickly, before all wights have arrived at your front line.

Tactic 8: Aganazzar's Scorcher. Oh, how Cold wights hate fire! One of my favorite tactics is to have my front line perfectly lined up with all the enemy lined up toe-to-toe against them. Then I dodge my Mage out around the end of my front line, so that she is perfectly in line with the enemy; then cut loose on the farthest enemy with A. Scorcher and listen to the entire front line of the enemy sizzle and scream! Sniff, sniff, Mmmm... Please pass the A-1 sauce.

Tactic 9: Haste/Slow. As was mentioned by Aerich, Haste could be a real help. I hate the after effects; but you can lick your wounds at leisure after this tough battle. Slow might be just as helpful, without the drawback.

Tactic 10: Area effect spells like Web and Entangle. Additional advice to that already given: Definitely throw them to cover your weakest side and also make sure that as much of the sticky area as possible falls within the radius of your perfectly placed Fireballs.

Tactic 11: Flee (if needed). Again, good advice from Aerich. If you have to do this too much, then go back a level or two and sleep in monster-infested areas until you level.

How did I do it? A tough front line of Fighter (later to DC to Druid), Fighter (later to DC to Thief) and Ranger (later to DC to Cleric) kept the Wights from getting to my Cleric (later to DC to Fighter), MC Mage/Thief and Bard. No summons nor defensive spells were needed. My Mage Fireballed the entire area at least twice with perfectly placed spells to tenderize the enemy front line. Not all Wights got toasted twice. My Bard joined the magic action with, IIRC, a Skull Trap thrown in between the Mage's Fireballs. Then the Mage busied herself with Magic Missile, the Bard threw a fire potion, and the Cleric threw Prayer before joined the other three heavies in pulverizing first one then another of the smoking leftovers. My Fighters were at least 3PP in close-in weapon, and I'm sure my Ranger was maxed out at 2PP. No one in my party lost more than 1/4 of their HP.

I don't think these are easy kills at all. Compared to lizardmen they are quite hard to kill.

We aren't talking about the first battle. That, most would admit, is a bit tough: maybe one of the top dozen toughest battles relative to expected party stregth in IWD. And, yes Cold Wights are tougher than Lizardmen. But the expo is a lot more, and picking these guys off 2 or 4 at a time is a piece of cake for any party that can survive the initial battle. I think most would say that the expo gained for the effort is very good.

If it is not easy for your party to pulverize a party of 4 Wights (that you've surprised, because your Thief scouted ahead), expending only one low level spell (e.g., Web, Entangle, or low level summon) and negligible loss of HP, then I suggest you review your tactics and party make-up now; because it will get MUCH tougher before you finish Dragon's Eye. (It might be that you have played so efficiently that your party is not experienced enough; so go back and sleep at the end of DE1 until you level.)

I hope this helped.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[Aerich]

Good tactical tips from NobleNick. Between us I think we've covered everything in these three posts.

The real trick, once your party has had it's butt whipped, is to sit back and think what went wrong and how to counter it. Yes, sometimes you need a bit of luck, but good tactics win out. NobleNick's most valuable piece of advice, IMO, is to use the pause button. You can also set the game to autopause whenever a character has finished a round.

If you have to (I often do this), rest on the level below so that you have exactly the spells you want for the fight. You may also want to switch up the party formation. If you change it to the triangle so that your best fighter-type is in front, that should help keep the wights away from your most vulnerable characters. You can also move that character forward if he has Free Action, so that the charging wights focus on that character alone. A couple Web spells dropped in there will help immeasurably.

I think you'll find that Web + the rings of Free Action are one of the most effective techniques you can use. Combine it with the Protection from Fire + fire spells, and it should get you through 90% of the battles.

I do have to disagree with NobleNick's assessment of your party. IMO, your front line is fine if it gets adequate support from the back and takes advantage of its strengths. Although your party is not absolutely the most efficient, it should do just fine. Rangers get an extra melee attack per round if using a single-handed weapon and no shield (simulating the dual-wield), and a F/C is a decent tank. I went through this area on insane with no single-class fighters and a multiclass F/C as my lead, and I did just fine (granted, I had 5 spellcasters at the time, but the point still stands).

One great tactic with a F/C is to cast Protection from Evil, Draw Upon Holy Might (DUHM), and Chant (in that order) before entering combat. Do this on the level below. You might be surprised how much this adds to the durability of your character. For extra-tough results, drink a potion of giant strength (or cast a strength spell of some kind) before casting DUHM.

One final thought? I'm not sure if you have a cleric other than your F[5]/C[5] tank, but if you do, try using Turn Undead.

[NobleNick]

Aerich, Calagari,

If you have to (I often do this), rest on the level below so that you have exactly the spells you want for the fight.

Bingo. Excellent advice.

You may also want to switch up the party formation. If you change it to the triangle so that your best fighter-type is in front, that should help keep the wights away from your most vulnerable characters.

Getting the enemy to concentrate on your most well protected character is an excellent move, provided that this character is very well armored. Calagari's F/C might be up to the task.

This reminds me of a nasty trick someone posted recently: *IF* your Thief can stay hid in shadows at this fight scene (I forget if there are torches there) then put your Thief on the front line and hide him in shadows on the previous level, just before going to DE3. If your Thief is still hidden when the Wights attack, he will be an invisible barricade that the Wights cannot pass through nor harm.

I do have to disagree with NobleNick's assessment of your party. IMO, your front line is fine if it gets adequate support from the back and takes advantage of its strengths. Although your party is not absolutely the most efficient, it should do just fine.

If Calagari's front line is MC F/C, Fighter and Ranger, then I agree. If his front line is F/C, Ranger, Ranger, then I am sorry, Aerich, this is not fine. Not fine now, and will get worse later. Most of HoW is going to be excruciating with this front line.

Rangers get an extra melee attack per round if using a single-handed weapon and no shield (simulating the dual-wield)...

And don't forget the racial enemy advantage. But so what? You aren't going to put these guys on the front line with no shield, are you? Ouch! They'll wilt faster than pansies transplanted to Houston in August. So, at least one has a shield and is helping shore up the front line, therefore no extra ApR. So, unless he just happens to be Fighting his racial enemy, he is going to be as effective as a poorly rolled and poorly groomed Fighter.

...and a F/C is a decent tank.

Better can be had, to wit: DC Fighter[X]/Cleric (X = 6 to 13, 4 to 5 PP in blunt weapon); DC Fighter[X]/Druid (X = 9 to 13, 4 to 5 PP in Scimitar); Paladin (2 PP in LongSword); and SC Fighter (5 PP melee). However, I agree with your statement.

I went through this area on insane with no single-class fighters and a multiclass F/C as my lead, and I did just fine (granted, I had 5 spellcasters at the time, but the point still stands).

Now there you go, again, doing insane things. But with 5 spellcasters, you had quite a lot of buffing available and a whole mess of pain to dish out to the enemy in a very short space of time. That is my point: SOMEBODY has to dish out a lot of hurt to the enemy in a very short strip of time, or you die. Calagari's party doesn't have the offensive muscle in the front line to do much of the work in the time alloted. To exacerbate the situation, his front line is not exceptionally tough; so he has to dish out the required amount of pain in even less time than most other parties would have. Therefore, he needs to play very smart with what he has got to give the rest of his party time to pick up the slack. In your party, you probably could have put Thieves and Clerics on the front line; because your army of spellcasters toasted the enemy before most could close to melee.
One great tactic with a F/C is to cast Protection from Evil, Draw Upon Holy Might (DUHM), and Chant (in that order) before entering combat.

I have always avoided Chant because it required your Cleric to take no other action for the duration of the spell. Hmmm... I guess this is equivalent to the Bard's restriction of do nothing else when Singing War Chant. This might work...

For extra-tough results, drink a potion of giant strength (or cast a strength spell of some kind) before casting DUHM.

I don't understand how extra strength (DUHM and STR potions) helps when you F/C can take no offensive action while Chanting. I would think pumping DEX with a potion or spell of Cat's Grace would be more effective.

One final thought? I'm not sure if you have a cleric other than your F[5]/C[5] tank, but if you do, try using Turn Undead.

I thought of this, too; but don't know if Wights are undead. BTW - If Calagari has an extra Cleric in his party, then my estimation of his party's viability in the later game and HoW goes up considerably.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[ZFR]

Chant allows the cleric to do other action for the duration... he only cant cast spells and movement slowed by half but he can still fight normally... still because of these restriction I too avoided this spell and used the higher versions instead (Prayer...)

Wights are undead but cleric at this time is too low leveled to affect them.

[Aerich]

A single-class cleric may be able to turn wights at this stage.

Chant is just another way to get +1 att/dmg for your party. The rationale behind using it this way is that a F/C tank won't be casting spells for the duration anyway. Does pretty well in melee, though, as long as you don't have to chase anything down. Might just want to use the slot for healing, though.

I still stand behind my comment that his front line is decent. The trick is to have the front line as a WEDGE, where the F/C (or a set of summoned monsters) is the focus of all attacks. The rangers can come in behind or beside the F/C and get their licks in without being as vulnerable. I agree, though, a pure or D/C fighter will be easier.

Second thing, you have to take advantage of the rangers' strengths. NobleNick mentioned having a thief invisible in the front line. Well, how about a ranger? Take off that armour and hide in shadows, but be ready to put the armour back on. If you're willing to do a bit of switching, it'll be just fine.

With two rangers, this party could specialize in ambush - both rangers with rings of free action go stealthed to scout out the enemy (or enter an area), attack, pause to put armour back on, and boot it back to the party. Drop a Web or Entangle spell near the rangers, and attack the stuck creatures with the rangers while the remainder of the party fires away with missile weapons. If too many enemies get free, run the rangers back through the Web in the other direction to maximize the chance of getting the chasing enemies caught again.

If you add a thief character and/or a druid with invisibility/sanctuary and Static Charge spells, that would give you four characters to get in the first blow from concealment. Could even Haste them for better results, subsequent fighting OR running.

IMO, there is no six-character party that cannot finish the game if they have decent stats - yes, there are combinations that would find it difficult (e.g. no priests), but it's not impossible.

[galdur]

Damn, so many texts for such simple solution... take mage with fireball, cast protection from fire
at tank, go with tank and when all this shit will be next to you, cast fireball. Finished.
Survilists will finish tank.

Be sure, you have your ac at least -2. (protection from evil is good spell for that).
How they can kick you butt?