Bush and Blair nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

[Konfuzed and Zany]

Last question
what Couragious things did the leaders do?
Nothing
They were never at risk

[Sir ReGiN]

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Originally posted by Thoran:


Sure there will be another, but another so wealthy and well connected? I doubt it. While the average Joe Extreemist is obviously willing to die for his beliefs... I think the willingness of rich arab's to die for Islam is... um... somewhat lower. Let the spoiled rich Arabs know that the price of their behavior is no less than their lives and you will not see such organized and well funded operations in the future.

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I think terrorists are ready to follow any impressive leader, and let me ask you, does anybody you know don't have a clue who Usama bin Laden is?
No, I thought not, see everybody with a TV or radio or newspaper knows who he is..that's what he's acuired Publicity!

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
Afghanastan was a necessary house cleaning, sadly the Afghani's were caught in the middle, but THANKS to an intelligent battle strategy the collateral damage WAS minimum (by ANY standard)

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You were bombing their country and you're sorry they got Cauhgt IN The Middle?? [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:


I think you really overestimate these people, you believe that OBL is doing what he's doing for some altruistic reason... to improve the lot of Muslem peoples everywhere and such. Don't believe it! His origonal gripe with the U.S. is that we are "soiling" Saudi soil through our presence... what a joke! He didn't start adding "love for his fellow Muslem" until he realized that he could score big points with Muslims by doing so. I recommend that we all be as critical of the terrorists propeganda as we already are of government propeganda.

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Why would he want to "score big points" with the muslims if he didn't want to improve their situation..
He thinks getting rid of the US is good for "his" people..
So, he's doing good, just not for you
And I'm critical to all propaganda, but I've hardly seen any Al-Qaeda propaganda, probarbly because there's no time left to show it because we get fed with "your" propaganda

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:

OBL is spoiled little brat who needs a good spanking and a cut in his allowance... nothing more. He's also likely dead from kidney disease (a fitting end imo).

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eeeh..right...

[Sir ReGiN]

quote:

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Originally posted by MagiK:
No Sir Regin Bombing Afghanistan when phrased the way it was, implies that your out there just bombing the whole damn country which you know is not the case..now maybe english isnt your first language and miss the nuances here but there is a hell of a difference between bombing targets in a country and bombing the whole place. So now you degenrate into playing dumbass semantics games which I hope is not the case or you just dont understand how to phrase things..either way...Im done with this thread too. I never said that to be WITH us meant that you had to bomb someone, but do something to take direct action against those cowards who attack unarmed unsuspecting innocent victims.

so take your shots, Im gone!

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I'm sorry you feel that way, MagiK..

[Melusine]

quote:

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Originally posted by Konfuzed and Zany:
Last question
what Couragious things did the leaders do?
Nothing
They were never at risk

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Oh come ON, Rikard!! If you are the head of your country, personal, physical risk isn't the only risk to consider! A leader who thought otherwise would be a very bad leader, IMO.

[fable]

Well if there's anybody who would vote for Bush receiving a Nobel Peace Prize, surely it would be the Russians and Chinese. Thanks to Bush keeping things nice and generic--a matter of "terrorism" which he never defined--the Russians can (and are) now claiming that the Chechniyan freedom fighters, who want independence from Russia, are all terrorists, while the Chinese have attached that term to the Tibetans and Falan Gong, the latter a religious sect into Buddhist exercises.

[Thoran]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:

I think terrorists are ready to follow any impressive leader, and let me ask you, does anybody you know don't have a clue who Usama bin Laden is?
No, I thought not, see everybody with a TV or radio or newspaper knows who he is..that's what he's acuired Publicity!

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They can follow any impressive leader they want but without the financial backing and connections that come with MONEY it won't get them farther than their own borders. And what does his publicity have to do with anything, were you going somewhere with that?

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:

You were bombing their country and you're sorry they got Cauhgt IN The Middle??

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absolutely... it is certainly not inconsistant to feel for the Afghani people. What was done was done out of necessity to eliminate the threat of terrorism and a pseudo-government that was sheletering and protecting them. Do you actually believe that if the we could have gone in and accomplished those goals without hurting a single Afghani we wouldn't have done that?

quote:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:

Why would he want to "score big points" with the muslims if he didn't want to improve their situation..
He thinks getting rid of the US is good for "his" people..
So, he's doing good, just not for you
And I'm critical to all propaganda, but I've hardly seen any Al-Qaeda propaganda, probarbly because there's no time left to show it because we get fed with "your" propaganda

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Again I think you're drawing relational lines that don't exist. There is not a relationship beteween his desire to gain the support of the Muslem world and a corresponing desire to help the Muslem world. There are many possible solutions to your "score big points" question, and the most likely solution is that the support of Muslems strenghtens his position... they are pawns to be used in his power game... and disposed of as required. He never once displayed a desire to help the Palestinians until AFTER 9/11... then all of a sudden they were a key part of his grand scheme. He is a man after power, and Islamic Fundamentalism provides him with a ready supply of people willing to blindly follow his every wish.

I tend to think that getting rid of the US is just the first target... he thinks getting rid of Western Civilization will help Islam... and him in the process. He doesn't give a shnitz for his "people" or he wouldn't sacrifice them with such regularity and in such quantities.

In the end the "top" people in these organizations have shown their true colors, they tried to make deals and duck and run. Sure... "we shall all die for Islam" sounds great... but in they end they "Turned their tails and ran" to the tune of the minstrel in "the Holy Grail"

When "evil" reared it's ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, LOL ... Brave brave bin laden!

quote:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:

eeeh..right...

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eeeh... ok... My point was that the only thing that will impact this behavior is... hit them hard, and cut off their money supply.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Sir ReGiN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
They can follow any impressive leader they want but without the financial backing and connections that come with MONEY it won't get them farther than their own borders. And what does his publicity have to do with anything, were you going somewhere with that?

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Money is not a problem for these people, private donators will always be there..

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
absolutely... it is certainly not inconsistant to feel for the Afghani people. What was done was done out of necessity to eliminate the threat of terrorism and a pseudo-government that was sheletering and protecting them. Do you actually believe that if the we could have gone in and accomplished those goals without hurting a single Afghani we wouldn't have done that?

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I was being ironic (nasty habit of mine )..I say that if you attack someone's country, they are bound to "get in the way" of your righteous bombs..
If you don't want this, don't bomb..

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
Again I think you're drawing relational lines that don't exist. There is not a relationship beteween his desire to gain the support of the Muslem world and a corresponing desire to help the Muslem world.

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Usama bin Laden is a religious fanatic..
This is his way of helping, that is what he has always done, just that nobody in the westen world knew about it until 9/11..

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Originally posted by Thoran:
He never once displayed a desire to help the Palestinians until AFTER 9/11... then all of a sudden they were a key part of his grand scheme.

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He actually did care for the palestinians before 9/11..
He has always contributed to the Intifada..

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
He is a man after power, and Islamic Fundamentalism provides him with a ready supply of people willing to blindly follow his every wish.

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That is a matter of propaganda..
It can be viewed from two angles..
His cause is the righteous, and people have finally realized this..
Or you're right..
Depends on where you're from and what kind of perosn you are really [img]smile.gif[/img]

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
And he doesn't thing getting rid of the US will help his people... he thinks getting rid of Western Civilization will help Islam... and him in the process. He doesn't give a shnitz for his "people" or he wouldn't sacrifice them with such regularity and in such quantities.

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Isn't USA a part of the western civilazation?
And isn't islamists his people?
And about the sacrifices; They do what they do because they serve a power much higher than OBL..
They contribute to his cause, that is a great honor, he doesn't even have to force them..

quote:

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Originally posted by Thoran:
His cronies showed their true colors as they tried to make deals and duck and run. Sure... "we shall all die for Islam" sounds great... but in they end they "Turned their tails and ran" to the tune of the minstrel in "the Holy Grail".

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Actually they ran because the US said they would kill them..
Wouldn't you run too if the entire US army was after you?
And the people that were caught, in Kandahar and other places, were not that important people..
The really important people have run, yes..or more likely, do exactly what they have always done, just in another place
And they have done this so good, that you haven't even been able to find them yet

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Sir ReGiN ]

[Rikard_OHF]

quote:

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Originally posted by Melusine:



Oh come ON, Rikard!! If you are the head of your country, personal, physical risk isn't the only risk to consider! A leader who thought otherwise would be a very bad leader, IMO.

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Read my first post
Most leaders would have reacted the same way
What they did was not extreemly couragious but logical
The nobel price if for people who did exceptional things
It ain't that easy to get and there's a reason for it
I said it before
If anyone deserves a Nobel price for this tragedy
It should be the NY Firefighters department for risking their lives to save others

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Rikard_OHF ]

[Grand-Ranger]

Rikard: Bill Cilton didnt react the same way when Osama bombed the USS Cole. Or numerous other US embasses. Maybe if he did react more strongly Sept. 11 never would have happened.

[Thoran]

I'm not going to bother quoting... major PITA and Sir ReGiN's post is right there. [img]smile.gif[/img]

...re: Leadership...
Private donors certainly will be there... but without the infrastructure they won't get too far. They need mechanisms to move capital and people between countries.

Back to the origonal point, which was not about money but leadership effectivness... Take away their figurehead and they lose their ability to focus power. Put the fear of death into the rich Muslems (those with a lot to lose) who would be able to take bin ladens place and they will not have the orgainization necessary to project their power internationally. There may be tens of thousands of Muslims ready to take up arms but there aren't many rich ones willing to stick their necks out farther than a briefcase under the table.

..re: Irony and hidden allusions...
Irony is fine... but your couching that irony in generalizations intended to draw into question the US campaign in Afghanastan. As others pointed out the US campaign was not generic... we didn't bomb "Afghanastan", we bombed selected targets within Afghanastan. Your insistance on the broad term is obviously intended to draw the reader to conclude we were broadly attacking the country. A position that is not reinforced by any facts. In fact, as I said before collateral damage to "Afghanastan" was very minimal given the scope of the campaign. It might be nit-picking but you're repeatedly using the broadest reference possible in what is apparently an attempt to insinuate that we were indeed including Afghani civillians in the scope of our operations? Or that what we did was out of line perhaps? Of course when you only insinuate you don't have to defend right? [img]smile.gif[/img] .

...re: the US not knowing about BL until after the 11'th...
I think most Americans were aware of Bin Laden before the 11th. But in reality it doesn't matter what we know/knew. In Bin Ladens public dealings before the 11th. there was NO public statement of support for the Palestinians...ever. His agenda before the 11th. was publicly based on the expulsion of US personnel from Saudi soil. His brand of Islam is based on exclusion, and infedels aren't welcome in the club.

...re: points of view...
Obviously there's multiple points of view to this, one point of view believes humans should be free to choose their path in life, the other believes humans should be controlled (in the name of God of course). When you distill the issue it comes down to that IMO. Frankly to wrap it in religous context is a standard behavior of the intolerant through history. The reason for this is that people with blind faith are obscenely easy to manipulate and control. The other historical lesson is that when religions have political power you get "religous" men who are in reality thinly veiled power brokers.

...re: western civilization -
Indeed we are a part of Western Civilization... but there again if you look at the wording of your posts it's painfully obvious that you're attempting to direct some sort of culpability towards the US... like WE alone are the cause and target of all that this man opposes. Of course my response was a less confrontational way of saying that your wrong, that we're all in this together, and you would be an eventual target to the extreemists "righteous" rage. Any country that doesn't follow his brand of extreem Islam WILL be subject to his agression at some point. His attacking of Moderate Islamic states should be ample evidence of these intentions.

...re: running...
Yes they ran... AFTER they thumped their chests for weeks about how they would all martyr themselves for Islam. Just like always, they talk the talk, but are unable to walk the walk (they did get a lot of subordinates to die en-mass for the glory of Islam, something to be proud of no doubt).

I think the idea that their operations will continue as normal is not supportable either, they're all hiding out in caves, unable to leave for fear, unable to communicate easilty with the outside world for fear, unable to adequately command their organization because any interaction with the outside world will draw attention.

They're holed up, and when they're holed up their not going to get much done. When they try to emerge we'll be waiting.

No cell phones, no radio communications, no satellite communications, no computers, no mobility. They may have some cash but they run the serious risk of losing it if they try to transfer it. They're prisoners who don't know they're in prison. That's what we really wanted to happen (end the international threat they posed). Any country they run to will be worried, that's also what we want. They can't trust their own people because many will surely turn him over for a shot at 25 mil.

We can afford to sit back and wait for a head to pop out of a hole.

[ 02-05-2002: Message edited by: Thoran ]