How am i sposed to go about this?

[lost prophet]

The party i am currently running was influenced by Noble Nicks power party and some other DC characters I'd seen. I've never really tried DC characters so decided to try a whole party of them, i never have a bard either but im trying one of those as well.

fighter[13]/mage *****axe ***longbow
fighter[9]/G_cleric ****mace ***sling
fighter[13]/N_cleric *****flails ***slings
fighter[9]/thief ****longsword ***longbow
fighter[13]/druid *****scimitar ***sling (rolled 91 on 8th try)
bard *small swords *crossbow

i know all the DC builds are rip offs of other from the forum but i just wanted to see what they were like but alas i did not think it through enough.

i have just entered DE lvl1 and all my characters are on lvl 6 (bard lvl 7), ive been playing on insane so far without any troubles but from the first lizard man battle it became to hard since they hit 40's and my fighters have 84 hp so its going down to normal lol.

when the lvl 9 DCers begin there second class they will have 3 lvl 9 fighters to back them up and help them survive but when the lvl 13 characters dual none of them will have there second class back again will they? so ill be walking around probably the first couple of lvls of SH with max lvl 5 chars (minus the bard of course). how am i sposed to cope with this? im not the most tactical player since sliced bread and running away every five minutes isnt really my style. the whole point of this post was to ask for a few tips to help me along until i at least get my lvl9 DCers gaining back there first class.

another question i have to ask is about my prof selection for the chars DCing at lvl 9. as you can see they wont have GM in there chosen weapon as they have *** in a ranged wep. was this a good choice or should i "dalekeep" the point across the get grand mastery?. i did this at first because most of the time my party starts a battle with ranged weapons on to take out any spellcasters or archers but was this worth sacrificing the benefits? (what are the exact benefits for GM).

I think thats all lol.

cheers

[ 10-06-2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: lost prophet ]

[NobleNick]

lost prophet,

Don't think of it as a "ripoff;" think of it as collaboration. That's why we're here.

I've never really tried DC characters so decided to try a whole party of them, i never have a bard either but im trying one of those as well.

fighter[13]/mage *****axe ***longbow
fighter[9]/G_cleric ****mace ***sling
fighter[13]/N_cleric *****flails ***slings
fighter[9]/thief ****longsword ***longbow
fighter[13]/druid *****scimitar ***sling (rolled 91 on 8th try)
bard *small swords *crossbow

Whoa! Nothing like jumping in with both feet!

when the lvl 9 DCers begin there second class they will have 3 lvl 9 fighters to back them up and help them survive but when the lvl 13 characters dual none of them will have there second class back again will they?

Yes, the F/C and the F/T will have their second classes back long before the other 3 Fighters DC. Here's how it goes:

250K XP --> Fighter(9) characters DC to second classes
410K XP --> 160K gained in Thief makes F(9)/T(10): Fighter reactivated.
700K XP --> 450K gained in Cleric makes F(9)/C(10): Fighter reactivated.
1,250K XP --> Fighter(13) characters DC to second classes

Even if you let your "junior" Fighters go to Fighter(12) before DC, you would get:

1,000K XP --> Fighter(12) characters DC to second class.
1,250K XP --> Fighter(13) characters DC to second classes
*No active fighters*
1,660K XP --> Fighter(12)/Thief(13): Fighter reactivated.
2,125K XP --> Fighter(12)/Cleric(13): Fighter reactivated.
2,600K XP --> Fighter(13)/Cleric(14): Fighter reactivated.
2,750K XP --> Fighter(13)/Druid(14): Fighter reactivated.
2,750K XP --> Fighter(13)/Mage(14): Fighter reactivated.

The gap from 1,250K to 1,660K looks like a long one; but remember that at the START of the gap, the team includes a Bard(15), a Thief(11) and a Cleric(9), and every member of the party, except the Bard, has about 130 HP. Also, your guys will advance in their new classes incredibly quickly: They DC at 1,250K; and a mere 60K later ALL will be level 7 or 8 in their second classes. You can dress the Cleric in the best armor, to be your tank, or dress your Bard in Blur, Mirror Image *AND* Stoneskin, and let her tank. The rest of the party can blast away with magic.

I would really advise that you try the above. If you feel you just don't want to do that; then I still advise letting the DC F/T go to F(11) before the DC, to get the extra 2 THAC0; and let the F/C go to F(12). If you are going into the expansions, especially on HoF mode, you will be glad you did.

On GM and Proficiency Point allocation in general: I think it is a good trade to have 1 or 2 in your back row go to 3 stars in ranged and forego GM in melee weapon. However, you want your front row to do GM. Here is the breakdown of how stacked PP affect your combat effectiveness:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

- According to Dundee Slaytern (not personally verified) the max ApR (from personal skills + equipment enchantments, etc.) is 5; but Haste (and other spells) can temporarily boost it as high as 10.

Bonuses To THAC0, Weapon Damage and ApR, vs. Proficiency Points in the weapon.

_#_OF_|___TOTAL_PP_BONUS_TO___|
__PP__|_THAC0_|_DAMAGE_|__APR__|
___0__|___-1__ |___-1___|___0.0__|
___1__|____0__ |____0___|___0.0__|
___2__|___+1__ |___+2___|__+0.5__|
___3__|___+3__ |___+3___|__+0.5__|
___4__|___+3__ |___+4___|__+0.5__|
___5__|___+3__ |___+5___|__+1.5__| <-- extra 1.0 ApR at 5 PP is not a typo.

- Chart data for ApR, only, is verified.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 PP is a sweet spot. 3 PP gives you a very nice boost, and I would also consider it a sweet spot. 4 PP is not a big gain over 3 PP; but 5 PP (GM) gets you another +1 to damage and *DING* *DING* *DING* gets you and EXTRA 1.0 ApR OVER 4 PP! I've done the math in another thread; but the short story is that a GM can OFTEN be OVER TWICE as effective with his weapon, than if he had only 2 PP in it.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-06-2005, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[lost prophet]

Originally posted by NobleNick: Whoa! Nothing like jumping in with both feet!

I'm a sucker for punishment I suppose.

thanks for that Noble Nick, now that I think about it I hadnt considered that the amount of experience it takes to get from lvl 1-9 would be about the same as 9-13 or even considerably less.

im now just polishing of DE lvl 2

on a side note, due to my lack of clerical healing I am now on Day 1024 lol. I just thought this was funny since Arundel is probably back in Kuldahar sh***ing himself silly because I'm taking so long.

[NobleNick]

lost prophet,

You replied while I was editing my reply to add the Proficiency Point / GM information you requested.

Yeah, a Druid, Thief or Bard can go from 0 to 11 faster than the Fighter can get from 9 to 10! The Mage can go from 0 to 10; the Cleric goes from 0 to 9; and even the Fighter gets from 0 to 9 in the same amount of XP that it takes the Fighter to get from 9 to 10.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-06-2005, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[lost prophet]

]So do you think I should go to Fighter lvl 11 on the cleric aswell or just the thief? right now I've busted out the campfire and tent on DE lvl 3 in an effort to get those last few lvls to start the thief and the cleric but if the cleric is going to dual at lvl 11 as well I might as well move on yeh?. I am planning to take this party through to TotLM and then again through HOF mode but I have the attention span of a goldfish and therefor probably wont make it but I'll try.
---------------------------------------
fighter[13]/mage *****axe ***longbow
***fighter[9]/G_cleric ****mace ***sling
fighter[13]/N_cleric *****flails ***slings
***fighter[{11}]/thief ****longsword ***longbow
fighter[13]/druid *****scimitar ***sling (rolled 91 on 8th try)
bard *small swords *crossbow

*** due to lack of GM will keep their ranged weapons on most of the time instead of melee.
--------------------------------------------

[edit] on another note once all the classes are reactive and all that whatnot my F/M should probably mainly act as a mage using ranged weapons(throwing axes as he will have GM) instead of a fighter. So that leaves only the F/D and the F/N_C who GM in a weapon and can tank 24/7 so the line up will probably look more like this.
F/N_C
F/D
F/G_C
F/T
F/M
B

and instead of using the formation where a triangle protects the weakest character I'll use the
* *
* *
* * ....type on lol.

(just put that there for future reference since noboby else actually cares lol)

[ 10-06-2005, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: lost prophet ]

[NobleNick]

lost prophet,

If it were me, I would take BOTH the Fighters that you were going to DC at F(9) to at least F(12) instead. This will give you a Bard(15), Thief(11) and Cleric(9) when the other Fighters DC at 13. I don't think it will be as painful as you fear.

IF you disagree (i.e., you *do* think the pain of doing this is too much) then at least take the F/C to F(12) before the DC, and let the F/T go to F(11). This will give you an active Fighter back before the others DC at 13. Actually, if you can't stand the pain of the Fighterless gap, you would have a stronger end game party, and enjoy the mid-game more, by using an MC F/T and letting EVERY DC Fighter go to F(13).

The reason for getting as many Fighter levels in as possible is that your Fighter's THAC0 will dominate in the finished character, and every Fighter level is worth an extra THAC0 point. So, your F(11)/T has a 2 point THAC0 advantage over a F(9)/T; and your F(12)/C will forever and always have a natural 3 point advantage (lower THAC0) over a F(9)/C. That is a lot: You would have to stack Recitation and Prayer to give each character in your party that advantage.

In addition, if that extra PP he gets at F(12) is used to take a melee weapon from 4 PP to 5PP (Grand Mastery) then your character also gains an extra damage point and a *FULL* bonus ApR with that weapon! If you already have GM, use the point to take the ranged weapon from 2 PP to 3 PP, which gives your slinger an extra 2 points THAC0 and +1 bonus damage, making the Sling (or Bow) much more deadly.

If you take the F/C to F(13) instead of F(9) (so then you would have 2 F(13)/C characters), then he will have a +1 to damage, a 4 point bonus to natural THAC0, and an extra 1.5 ApR in melee (and an extra 0.5 ApR, and possibly an EXTRA 2 point bonus to THAC0, in ranged weapon) over the F(9)---> CONSIDERABLY meaner. And you will want to tap all that extra effectiveness in HoW (especially on HoF); because your F/Cs will likely be on the front line all the time. (My C(12)/R and F(13)/C are destined to be the party's tanks when I hit HoW; and, based on previous experience with similar builds, I expect them to perform most excellently in the role.)

Believe me: If you DC out of Fighter any time BEFORE making F(13), you will **NOT** be saying to yourself in the late game, "Oh, I wished I had DCed out of Fighter earlier." There is no doubt that a F(13)/T(17) is more useful that a F(9)/T(21); and **I** personally would prefer a F(13)/C(15) over a F(9)/C(19) This is true for a Normal IWD/HoW/TotLM game, and is even more applicable to your HoF-enhanced experience, where you can easily achieve F(13)/C(20+).

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[lost prophet]

aarg I knew I should have waited! I already DC'ed the cleric. when he got to level 9 I kind of got exited about dualing him since 5 fighters was getting a tad boring...the impatience of youth and all that lark you understand.

hmm if I fiddle around a bit i might be able to change it back in dalekeeper; we'll see.

Thanks for your help so far NN, I find its a much more satisfying feeling *building* the characters than just having a single or MC charcter and playing the game. I think I'm being convertered, anyway onto dalekeeper.

PS. bard reached lvl 11 and got WCotS. I've done some experimenting with it in big fights and I'm not happy with it so far, its not as effective as i thought it would be.

inconsequently: Day 2318

[ 10-06-2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: lost prophet ]

[lost prophet]

for some reason dalekeepr isnt opening properly, it says that it cannot read the files and that i should check my installation directory, except the ID is right. I have a feeling it might have something to do with my AB installation.

[edit]: indeed that was the problem

[ 10-06-2005, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: lost prophet ]

[NobleNick]

lost prophet,

Do you have IWD running? That will make Dalekeeper choke.

If that is not your problem, then I would try using Dalekeeper to open a game samed from IWD before the mod. If that works, then I'd...

Export the character you need to work on (carrying no special items). Import same character into a normal IWD game. Save. Work on character from normal game in Dalekeeper. Export-Import to get character back to your normal game.

At least that is what I would try.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-06-2005, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[lost prophet]

I'm afraid I tried that already and everything else i can think of. i uninstalled AB and managed to get it working but DK kept performing illigel operations on me and closed so when i reistalled AB none of the items from the mod were on my characters. I am severly pissed off. I've had to start a new game with my characters, so i'll burn through it up to DE 3 and take it from there, a bummer but it should teach me to keep more than an autosave and a quicksave. Good job my auto save was back when i hadnt already DC'd my F/G_C

[ 10-06-2005, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: lost prophet ]