Any one else miss Gilgamesh's Tavern?

SpitBall · 03-23-2005, 10:46 AM

When the Wiz series dropped the ability to re-form a party without re-starting they lost the concept of character development. Now, one is actually developing the PARTY, not the characters. A back-room at He-li's place would be an ideal meeting spot for developed characters, no?

Nightowl2 · 03-23-2005, 02:25 PM

Dunno about that, Spit. After all, the Party IS the characters. Hard to develop one and not the other.

A back room at He'Li's is an interesting idea, though.

Nightowl2

SpitBall · 03-23-2005, 03:28 PM

Nightowl2 - I think you are making my point. Did you ever play Wizardry 1? In that game, you assembled the party at Gilgamesh's Tavern, then entered the "dungeon" for adventures. When you were done adventuring, or had to leave for some other reason, you could go back to the tavern and disband. But, the characters kept their levels and experience. So, you could mix it up with other characters, or a smaller party and head back to the dungeon. This meant that development was of the individual characters. Depending upon what task you needed to complete in the dungeon, you could choose the appropriate characters and hit the road.

In a game like Wiz 8 (or 5-7, for that matter; never played 3 and 4), where one must start over with lvl 1 characters to change the party composition, you are 100% correct - the PARTY IS THE THING. Of course, the new twist of recruiting NPC's is a sort of compromise.

Along the way, the personal "relationship" that players had with their characters has been transferred to the parties - I notice that folks actually "name" their parties, even though the game has no mechanism for such, and at the same time, few posters refer to their characters by name. To me, the advent of the Iron wo/man games and the drive toward solo parties are attempts to get back to that kind of individual "relationship".

I'm not critizing the game - just making a social/psychological observation about how the humans that play the game relate to it. Why? Because I have noticed another change from the days of Wiz 1 - back then (maybe it was just my group of friends), playing Wizardry was a GROUP activity because folks each had their own characters to look after - and pre-automap mapping was most efficient with a minimum of two people. Now, as I peruse these boards (and others), it is obvious that playing Wiz 8 is mostly done alone.

Nightowl2 · 03-23-2005, 08:42 PM

Played em all, Spit, from Proving Grounds up to Wiz 8. Remember "identify item #9", one of the greatest "undocumented features" of all time?

It is true that many give their parties a name, though it's not something I've ever done. Every character in every party - whatever the RPG - has always been an individual to me. I suspect this is true for those who have "named" parties, as well.

In fact, I prefer party systems to solos. I have never been able to play Wiz 8 with a solo character; it's just too lonely. I also miss the comments; gets boring with only one saying all the lines.

Also, I like taking a party and bringing up the members through the game rather than dropping people off and taking on others. That always has a mechanical feel to me. This is where you start thinking of characters as tools instead of individuals. That was a feature of the later Might & Magics that annoyed me, and I tended to keep those I had through the game, regardless.

Nightowl2

babar · 03-24-2005, 12:19 AM

I miss having a tavern. Sure it's more mercenary that way, but i feel it's kind of silly to have my Lord tag along to rob the bank. I probably wouldn't exchange characters often, but it would be nice to have the option. It would be nice if you could hire NPCs at the tavern (if not add real characters). Personally I don't use NPCs, 1) they they suck up exp pts, 2) they leave their junk with you and 3) you have trek out into the middle of nowhere to hire them.

Wiz8 is not really a multiplayer game. In the genre, many people play in groups on-line ... not exactly the same as a bunch of guys huddled around one computer. Now when Wiz9 comes out (due around November 2145) and it has multiplayer, I'm sure some people with play in groups.

I don't miss sleeping in the stables (free!).

Wereboar · 03-24-2005, 07:19 AM

Quote:

It is true that many give their parties a name, though it's not something I've ever done. Every character in every party - whatever the RPG - has always been an individual to me. I suspect this is true for those who have "named" parties, as well.

Well, if you play ironman mode, you have only one savefile, and you name that file at the start of the game, so that's the 'party name'.

In addition, i've played many games. Sometimes with quite random parties, but often with a theme (like spell-only, simple professions only, only bards & gadgateers, only archery, ...). Then the 'theme' is the party name.

SpitBall · 03-24-2005, 08:52 AM

I see what you are saying, nightowl. It is most definitely true that to develop a good party, one must focus on the individual characters.

Actually, the "identify #9" thing reminds me of another aspect of the earlier renditions of Wiz. We stumbled across that by accident and created one of the most powerful "uber" characters I have ever come across. (perhaps one could do better with a game editor, but I have never messed around with one of those - don't need any more addictions, thank you!). We all figured that it was some kind of "back-door" for the game programmers that they had left ajar. Anyway... that character taught us about putting together rescue missions to "save" the characters from parties that had been anihilated in the dungeon. In subsequent Wiz games, there is no reason to generate such "personal" missions - you are always doing what someone else told you to do.

As to the "mercenary" aspect, babar - isn't that what doing all these missions for the NPC's is about? We are hired "guns", no? I'm not certain that playing multi-player games "together" on-line is quite the same kind of social experience as getting together on Friday night with a group of friends, good food, and a few beers to go explore and map the next level of the Proving Grounds. (I'm not saying it is BAD, just that it is different).

If, indeed, there ever is a Wiz 9 - I hope they consider bringing back this option. I'd also like to see some way to reward a non-violent approach to the game....but, considering all the effort they've put into the combat mode, I don't see that happening.

SpitBall · 03-24-2005, 08:56 AM

babar - you don't miss sleeping in the stables? Lately my party has been sleeping in the Swamp - a little dry hay would probably feel good, right about now.

babar · 03-24-2005, 11:27 PM

hehe, that depends on what have the diremares been eating and will they still run away when they need to go.

bladedog · 03-31-2005, 06:58 AM

I don't think I miss the tavern etc. but one thing from the early Wizardry games I do miss is the chance of screwing up a Resurection!

Res powders and scrolls, whilst initially very expensive (but plentiful if you know where to look) are foolproof aren't they?

There was nothing as worrying as taking your characters back to the temple, paying for a res and it failing that first time!!!! Will it work the second time!!!!

03-23-2005, 10:46 AM	#1
SpitBall The Magister Join Date: March 17, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 110	When the Wiz series dropped the ability to re-form a party without re-starting they lost the concept of character development. Now, one is actually developing the PARTY, not the characters. A back-room at He-li's place would be an ideal meeting spot for developed characters, no? __________________ \"The great legacies of the 20th Gregorian century are the domestication of humanity and the economic advantage of superior firepower\"

03-23-2005, 03:28 PM	#3
SpitBall The Magister Join Date: March 17, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 110	Nightowl2 - I think you are making my point. Did you ever play Wizardry 1? In that game, you assembled the party at Gilgamesh's Tavern, then entered the "dungeon" for adventures. When you were done adventuring, or had to leave for some other reason, you could go back to the tavern and disband. But, the characters kept their levels and experience. So, you could mix it up with other characters, or a smaller party and head back to the dungeon. This meant that development was of the individual characters. Depending upon what task you needed to complete in the dungeon, you could choose the appropriate characters and hit the road. In a game like Wiz 8 (or 5-7, for that matter; never played 3 and 4), where one must start over with lvl 1 characters to change the party composition, you are 100% correct - the PARTY IS THE THING. Of course, the new twist of recruiting NPC's is a sort of compromise. Along the way, the personal "relationship" that players had with their characters has been transferred to the parties - I notice that folks actually "name" their parties, even though the game has no mechanism for such, and at the same time, few posters refer to their characters by name. To me, the advent of the Iron wo/man games and the drive toward solo parties are attempts to get back to that kind of individual "relationship". I'm not critizing the game - just making a social/psychological observation about how the humans that play the game relate to it. Why? Because I have noticed another change from the days of Wiz 1 - back then (maybe it was just my group of friends), playing Wizardry was a GROUP activity because folks each had their own characters to look after - and pre-automap mapping was most efficient with a minimum of two people. Now, as I peruse these boards (and others), it is obvious that playing Wiz 8 is mostly done alone. __________________ \"The great legacies of the 20th Gregorian century are the domestication of humanity and the economic advantage of superior firepower\"

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03-23-2005, 02:25 PM	#2
Nightowl2 Galvatron Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Plateau of Leng Age: 46 Posts: 2,190	Dunno about that, Spit. After all, the Party IS the characters. Hard to develop one and not the other. A back room at He'Li's is an interesting idea, though. Nightowl2

03-23-2005, 08:42 PM	#4
Nightowl2 Galvatron Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Plateau of Leng Age: 46 Posts: 2,190	Played em all, Spit, from Proving Grounds up to Wiz 8. Remember "identify item #9", one of the greatest "undocumented features" of all time? It is true that many give their parties a name, though it's not something I've ever done. Every character in every party - whatever the RPG - has always been an individual to me. I suspect this is true for those who have "named" parties, as well. In fact, I prefer party systems to solos. I have never been able to play Wiz 8 with a solo character; it's just too lonely. I also miss the comments; gets boring with only one saying all the lines. Also, I like taking a party and bringing up the members through the game rather than dropping people off and taking on others. That always has a mechanical feel to me. This is where you start thinking of characters as tools instead of individuals. That was a feature of the later Might & Magics that annoyed me, and I tended to keep those I had through the game, regardless. Nightowl2

03-24-2005, 12:19 AM	#5
babar Manshoon Join Date: November 12, 2003 Location: celesteville Age: 53 Posts: 246	I miss having a tavern. Sure it's more mercenary that way, but i feel it's kind of silly to have my Lord tag along to rob the bank. I probably wouldn't exchange characters often, but it would be nice to have the option. It would be nice if you could hire NPCs at the tavern (if not add real characters). Personally I don't use NPCs, 1) they they suck up exp pts, 2) they leave their junk with you and 3) you have trek out into the middle of nowhere to hire them. Wiz8 is not really a multiplayer game. In the genre, many people play in groups on-line ... not exactly the same as a bunch of guys huddled around one computer. Now when Wiz9 comes out (due around November 2145) and it has multiplayer, I'm sure some people with play in groups. I don't miss sleeping in the stables (free!).

03-24-2005, 08:52 AM	#7
SpitBall The Magister Join Date: March 17, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 110	I see what you are saying, nightowl. It is most definitely true that to develop a good party, one must focus on the individual characters. Actually, the "identify #9" thing reminds me of another aspect of the earlier renditions of Wiz. We stumbled across that by accident and created one of the most powerful "uber" characters I have ever come across. (perhaps one could do better with a game editor, but I have never messed around with one of those - don't need any more addictions, thank you!). We all figured that it was some kind of "back-door" for the game programmers that they had left ajar. Anyway... that character taught us about putting together rescue missions to "save" the characters from parties that had been anihilated in the dungeon. In subsequent Wiz games, there is no reason to generate such "personal" missions - you are always doing what someone else told you to do. As to the "mercenary" aspect, babar - isn't that what doing all these missions for the NPC's is about? We are hired "guns", no? I'm not certain that playing multi-player games "together" on-line is quite the same kind of social experience as getting together on Friday night with a group of friends, good food, and a few beers to go explore and map the next level of the Proving Grounds. (I'm not saying it is BAD, just that it is different). If, indeed, there ever is a Wiz 9 - I hope they consider bringing back this option. I'd also like to see some way to reward a non-violent approach to the game....but, considering all the effort they've put into the combat mode, I don't see that happening.

03-24-2005, 08:56 AM	#8
SpitBall The Magister Join Date: March 17, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 110	babar - you don't miss sleeping in the stables? Lately my party has been sleeping in the Swamp - a little dry hay would probably feel good, right about now.

03-24-2005, 11:27 PM	#9
babar Manshoon Join Date: November 12, 2003 Location: celesteville Age: 53 Posts: 246	hehe, that depends on what have the diremares been eating and will they still run away when they need to go.

03-31-2005, 06:58 AM	#10
bladedog Dungeon Master Join Date: July 3, 2004 Location: UK Age: 53 Posts: 63	I don't think I miss the tavern etc. but one thing from the early Wizardry games I do miss is the chance of screwing up a Resurection! Res powders and scrolls, whilst initially very expensive (but plentiful if you know where to look) are foolproof aren't they? There was nothing as worrying as taking your characters back to the temple, paying for a res and it failing that first time!!!! Will it work the second time!!!!

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