Capitalism and Christianity

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Yorick: G'kar is trying to tell me what the fundamental principle of my faith is Dio. Grace. To understand Grace fully, one must also understand law. It's akin to understanding freedom fully after internment or restriction. Regarding my "arrogance", there is no insecurity. Odd that you would think it so. It is precisely he opposite my friend. Doubts and crisis of faith were things - are things - that I embrace as a precursor to a deeper level of understanding, not something I fear or remove myself from. Regarding my "putting down" other religions, I post reactively, not proactively to ideas and theologies posted. I spent six months on here before people even knew I was Christian. I have actually shown restraint regarding my objections. Shown tolerance of other beliefs. I try wherever possible to challenge the central generic teaching, not an individuals interpretation. I respect anyones right to believe what they will. This respect must be mutual however. I am not pantheistic. Christ is not "one of the ways" one can take, but in my belief the only way. Tolerating my position is as important as me tolerating theirs. I do care about others Dio. I care that others have not tasted Grace. I care that others are on a path to what I percieve as oblivion. I previously had no care for those that didn't want to know Christ. That was their business. Between them and God. It was arrogant of me to presume to impose my truth upon others. I knew where I was going and that's all that mattered. Consequently I only spoke of my theologies to fellow believers, taught in bible colleges, had fellowship with others on the same path. However I have had a growing concern for others - especially after WTC. I have seen the spiritual ache and hunger in people I have spoken to that I'd have never thought possible. I've had people willing to hear, willing to open their minds in an attempt to find the same God I know. If I know him, who am I to keep that to myself? Knowing God has given me such inner peace, such joy, perception, creativity, love of life, friendliness, connection, thirst for knowledge, artistic appreciation and satisfaction, that I shouldn't be keeping that "secret" to myself. If I speak of it, and people reject it, so be it. At least I have opened my heart to them, and given them an option. I now have to find a balance between offending, and yet adhering the growing impulses to speak. These are my beliefs. Part of the things I have to compromise when practicing tolerance. Part of the things that in tolerating me, must also be accepted, if not agreed with.

Again, thank you for posting, Yorick. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your posts, no matter what my own view. And this one struck a chord. Thanks.

Pax,

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Again, thank you for posting, Yorick. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your posts, no matter what my own view. And this one struck a chord. Thanks. Pax, Cloudy

Amber.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Jafin: You have an interesting question/idea/whatever here. Jesus never taught that you can't have personal wealth. He taught that whatever you do, you should follow God's will for your life. I am a Christian, I have been all my life and I will for the rest of my life, nobody can shake me from that. I am also an advocate of capitalism. That doesn't mean that I worship capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system, not a religion (well to some it is ). There is nothing in the Bible that forbades monetary wealth, so long as it doesn't rise in importance above God. Daniel in the Old Testament was a wealthy man, but he was a man of God. There are many men of God alive today who have monetary and materialistic wealth. Nothing is forbidding me from it. Personally, I pray to God that he'll aid in my gaining of wealth so I can live a comfortable, maybe luxurious life. However, I just gotta keep God first. -Jafin

He did say, however, that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: He did say, however, that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I've discussed this already Silver.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Yorick: I am disappointed by the sarcasm of your post. The vibes and attitude I have been recieving from you, G'kar and Silver Cheetah have flabbergasted me of late. Stay in your little shell then Diogenes. Be blind to alternate possibilities and ideas. Remain in the comfort zone that Christians are always your father and their small minded agendas are all the same, and something you will refute to your grave.

Yorick, come on.... Think just for a minute. Do you not think that the tone of your own posts might have something to do with the tone of some of the responses? You are so sure you are right, (in that you aren't alone! ) and are frequently agressive and/or patronising towards those that disagree.

I'm not picking on you here, I do exactly the same when my mood is scratchy or I'm particularly upset or irritated by something I read.

Because we're coming from different world views and experiences, what seems obvious to me, is not at all to you, and vice versa. That can be a frustrating experience.

When it comes down to it, none of us have a channel to absolute truth, however much we may we think we have.

What we do have is truth that works for us, individually. We might do well to remember that, whilst debating, and I address that comment to myself, as much as to you. (And yes, I probably will forget it in the heat of the moment! )



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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: When it comes down to it, none of us have a channel to absolute truth, however much we may we think we have. What we do have is truth that works for us, individually. We might do well to remember that, whilst debating, and I address that comment to myself, as much as to you. (And yes, I probably will forget it in the heat of the moment! )

Ah yes, post modernism. Unfortunately I am post-post modernist in my thinking.
Take for example my thinking that I alone have absolute truth. Under post modernist thought I am right, for by concieving my truth I make it right.

So here goes.

I possess absolute truth. This is my reality and my truth so it is right, and you as a true post modernist cannot presume me to be wrong.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: He did say, however, that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Silver, the problem with pulling verses out like this is that you're falling into literalism. Christians do the same thing: open the bible randomly, read a verse or two and presume it to speak into there life.

With literalism we can find justification for a host of bizzarre behaviour, and find verses that seemingly contradict each other.

The bible is not meant to be read in this fashion, and in doing so, while one may find granules of wisdom and truth, one becomes oblivious to broader themes, deeper levels of understanding, and the bibles manifold wisdom therein.

In understanding Gods attitude to possesions and wealth we must do more than take an isolated verse. The "young rich man" was told to give up everything, sell it all, give it away and follow Christ. Why? It was a stumbling block. Something that prevented him from the freedom of Gods love, chained him to behavioural patterns, mindsets and values.

"Debt is the modern slavery". Money was his God. Money can become a God to the rich.

I have had relative wealth before now. I have also turned my back on greater wealth before now. The greatest freedom I felt though was living out of one suitcase for months. No responsibility or ties to any place. I could and did go anywhere. I had lost everything. In my divorce I lost a house and most of my money. Yet when one has nothing, one has nothing to lose. I had my God, and that relationship with God strengthened.

I'm not suggesting vagrancy is the perfect life, and it is not something I am seeking to exist in for the rest of my life. I am accumulating in New York, planting roots, grafting into the city. However I have no fear of losing everything. If God "calls me" to the Indian jungle to live on plain rice, then I have no fear of doing such. He is my God, not money, people, lifestyle, career, ministry, music, hedonism or knowledge.

Nebuchadnezzar of the old Testament was emperor of Babylon. As the tale goes he was stripped of his position and lived as a pauper and forest dweller unrecognised until he learned some aspects and returned. The Israleites wandered for 40 years in the desert without a homeland, Jesus himself spent time in the desert with little to eat, isolation and plenty of room for contemplation. (After being in the Nevada/Arizona deserts last week, I can comprehend the mind expanding depth one can achieve through spending time there. Beautiful)

What I'm attempting to say - however verbosely - is that the bible is themeatic. It must be read in completion. Any book contained must be read with regard to other books inside, not in isolation. It's a tougher deal than pulling out a verse here and there, but then no pain, no gain.

Gods attitude to wealth, riches and desires that conflict with him, and thus cause a life of mental imprisonment and "slavery" is found throughout the whole tome, not just in a few verses.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Moiraine]

I've been reading this thread this eve, and you all made me think ...

I'm an atheist, so I don't feel qualified talking about religions, but anyway ...

Seems to me that, whatever his beliefs, any human being is basically confronted with the need to give a meaning to his/her life, and to find his own definition, or balance, in this life. The answers to that quest are multiple, but that's not my point.

Back to the subject of capitalism, I think that making money for money only may not be the only incentive it provides. By far. There is the quest for power. There is the quest for approval by others. These and many other incentives, which basically are ways (wrong ways, maybe, but ways anyhow) for someone to give substance to his own being. Remeber Silk, in David Eddings'"Belgariad", saying "Money is only a way to count the points" (or whatever, I read that in French ).

Basically, money is not bad or good, money is a way to measure the worth of someone's work. Or someone's needs, assuming solidarity is taken into account. What seems to me to be basically wrong with capitalism, mind that it's my own opinion, is that a good part of the money it generates doesn't go into the pockets of neither the people whose work generated it, nor the people who need it. Anyway ...

Religion are also in the field of definition of world and self (much more than that, sure, but my point is NOT entering a religious debate here ).

All people are not at the same stage in having found their own internal balance and life definition. Seems to me that what some of you perceive as a kind of arrogance in Yorick's posts is really the assurance that blesses him from having found his balance. Which I envy him very much.

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The world is my oyster !

[This message has been edited by Moiraine (edited 10-09-2001).]

[Moridin]

First off, I would like to know why most of these threads turn into attacks on Yorick? He has a faith deeper than most will ever know and he not only defends that faith fervently, but also tries to explain it eloquently. I applaud him on his knowledge of other religions/beliefs! Others feel no need to try and learn and understand how others could/would follow another belief system. It is this knowledge and learning that strengthens and/or weakens your own beliefs. Instead of reciting how arrogant Yorick is in his posts, let's actually read what he writes, because he does so as a wise and knowledgable man!

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: The idea for this thread arose from Donut's question regarding what would Jesus do in the HOW DO YOU LIKE US NOW thread. Anybody care to try to rationalize how America can claim to be a predominantly Christian country at the same time it worships capitalism? How do you reconcile the apparent glaring contradiction between Jesus' positions regarding worldly wealth with the attitude of capitalism of amassing as much worldly wealth as possible? I am interested in seeing if anybody CAN reconcile those two things. For my own part, I don't think they can be. It's just another example of how many people who claim to be Christians today really don't follow Jesus' teachings at all. Hell, in this case, they follow the OPPOSITE of what he taught. Thoughts, comments, flames?

Diogenes...I don't think either generalization can be made about America. Some, but not all proclaim us to be a Christian Nation, and it is hard to say we worship capitalism when so many of our population live in poverty, or struggle with two/three jobs just to stay afloat, I am sure they are not worshipping capitalism.

It is a funny topic. Any quick search on google or any other search engine for "capitalism and christianity" brings up some sites that proclaim that Christianity is the basis for capitalism and others proclaim that capitalism destroyed Christianity. Well which is it? Could it be neither?

I don't think that Capitalism and Christianity (or any religion for that matter, b/c there are non-christian nations that are also capitalist in nature), are intertwined. As many others have stated, one can be a Christian and yet still function and prosper in Capitalism.

Capitalism merely provides us with a means of being prosperous. It does not make us rich, but allows for us to become rich. It does not make us poor, but allows us to become poor. Capitalism is not a religion. I have to disagree with Yorick on this point. There are no fundamental beliefs on how we should live our lives. There are no preachers of beliefs. There is no Bible reciting these beliefs. Those that you say worship Capitalism, actually worship money, and no they are not the same. A person can become rich under any form of economic system. There are rich Monarchs, there are rich Socialists, there are rich Communists, etc...it is not entirely contained in Capitalism. The question I think becomes how can one be a Christian and also strive to attain monetary wealth.

As for the Christian side, I cannot say as I am an atheist and do not have enough knowledge to make a good argument one way or the other. But I do like other's posts regarding this side of the issue!

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Ah, a touchy subject. I'm sure you know that wars have been are are being fought over differences of religion. I'll try not to bring about any more flames in this subjective matter. I do have something to add though. I spent 8 years in the U.S. Army as a Chaplain Assistant. As such, I was expected to understand many different religions and denominations within those religions. I was not required to participate in them though.

I was raised in a very deeply conservative Christian home where the Bible was taken literally. We called it "God Breathed". The basic idea was that if the Bible is God and God is the bible, then you should never doubt the Bible. I would suggest that we make this a bit more ecumenical and try to understand the other person's point of view because of the nature of religion. If you want my opinion, you are welcome to email me and I'll share my agnostic viewpoint.

So, consider this a respectful warning that this subject has hurt many people in the past and I really don't want it to happen here. You all seem like such nice people.



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"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
-Robert McCloskey