Calling to all who...

[ZFR]

... like helping with party creation or played in HoF.

First of all...
I just want to clarify... I already played IWD with HoW and TotL several times. I am no noob and am not looking to make the most powerful party. I understand my party has some weaknesses and am willing to go along with them. Had it been normal IWD+ expansions I would've played my party as it is. That said, I have never really played HoF (tried once with a new 6 person party and gave up at the orc caves), and so I'm not sure how my party will fare there. That's why I don't want to end up with a party that is completely unplayable and I end up using the "quick load" more often than I use "pause".

My new game IWD+HoW+TotL all in HoF is starting somewhere next summer. But planning is starting now.

Party + questions below:
1.Multi cleric/ranger OR Paladin - See questions below.
2.Dual Fighter -> Druid
3.Multi Fighter/Druid - Both non-negotiable. I want a game to compare those two.
4.Evil Dwarven Multi Fighter/Cleric - Again non-negotiable. I wanted to roleplay this one for a very long time.
5.Bard - Semi-non-negotiable. I think at higher levels in HoW the bard will not be all that useful as in lower levels, nevertheless I think a bard is a must. Unless I hear some strong arguments as to why not include him, I'm taking him.
6.Multi Fighter/Thief/Mage OR Gnome Multi Thief/illusionist See questions below.

Questions:

1. I know it is possible to start HoF with 6-person level 1 party but I tried it and it was way too hard. That's why I plan to play my party in normal or hard difficulty and after some time after gaining some XP export them and import them in a brand new HoF game. I plan on doing it some 70000XP. Any ideas as to a better starting XP? How much XP can I gain if I play through HoF with TotL and do all quests?

2. I played IWD2 in HoF and found that mellee is completely useless there, because even smallest goblins have such high attack that they hit you with every attack.. My sorceror ended up doing almost 2 thirds of the damage, and my other spellcasters with most of the rest. How is it in IWD1? Is mellee still effective in HoF? I'm concerned I dont have enough mage power.

3. Are summons in HoF also more powerful (ie as powerful as their monster equivalents in HoF)?

PARTY questions:

4. Character 1. I wouldve went along with multi cleric/ranger, but I realized that in that case my 4 main potential mellee persons wont be able to use many weapons (longswords, axes...). So I thought of changing to paladin. Then again, it's not really such a big problem. I can use bludgegoing weapons, which there are many good ones, and I remeber very few monsters being immune to bludgegoing, so it should be okay. If worst happens, longswords, axes can be used by bard. What are your opinions? Please note dual cleric/ranger is out of the question. I'm saving it for another party.

5. Character 2. What is best time to dual? Since I have a multi fighter/druid in party, I thought of dualling as late as possible. level 13? How about even later? 15? 16?

6. Character 6. I never played a triple multi character and really really want to try one. I figure with HoF it is the best time to do it as there will be plenty of XP for him to level up. Still, if you think that is too weak, and will make my arcane spellcasting even weaker, I would change it to thief/illusionist (or thief/mage). What are your opinions?

Any other general comments about playing HoF, or about my party are highly welcome.

[ 10-24-2005, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: ZFR ]

[NobleNick]

ZFR,

I would feel uncomfortable without a warrior that could wield a non-crushing weapon; but don't forget that your Druids can use scimitars. Given that, I'd take the Cleric/Ranger over the Paladin. Two Clerics is really nice. Looks like you will have a good and an evil Cleric in the same party: interesting. Your evil Cleric, when turning undead, actually controls them: so there you have your "summons" with HoF stats!

Yeah, I'd dual the F/D as late as possible: MINIMUM of F(13). Going to F(15) gets you an extra PP, for 9 PP total for the Fighter. If you have been stacking as high as you can, this means you already have 5 PP in your main weapon, and this latest PP will give you 4 PP in your sling, which is no big deal (3 and 5 are the sweet spots). However, going to CLVL 15 also gives your Fighter an extra 2 points bonus to natural THAC0, which your F/D can benefit from while shape-shifted and not using any weapon, so it might be worth the extra effort. It takes 2750K XP to build a F(13)/D(14+) and 3775K to build a F(15)/D(16+). So, if I knew that my party of 6 would get 4,000K * 6 = 24,000K by, say, early TotLM, then I'd go for the 15/16 build. Someone else needs to chime in on how much XP you will get from each stage of the game in HoF. Use this info to decide for yourself if it is worth it for you.

I think you have enough Mage power. Don't forget that your Bard will have a ridiculously high CLVL, which affects the power of many spells, as well as how many spell slots she gets. Also, you have 2 full Druids, and 2 full Clerics (one of which can also use low level Druid spells). 2 Druid + 2 Cleric + 2 Mage = pretty well covered.

I like the idea of your F/M/T, for the extra Fighter XP and to get the ability to wear high-octane armor, when needed. Everyone, except the Bard, is DC or MC, so your triple class will not be far behind the pack. If it is allowed for the triple-class, I would use a Gnome and make the Mage an Illusionist, to get the extra spell slots. (I know Dundee Slaytern would say that general is better; but with the high-level Bard able to access all schools, and the Mage getting only 6% of the party's XP, even Dundee might admit that the extra specialist slots are worth it.)

I have not played HoF mode; but in all the posts I've seen over the years, I've not gotten the feeling that melee skill and buffs were unimportant or somehow overshadowed by arcane expertise.

Like you said, this is not a *pure* power party; but I think it is certainly powerful, balanced and viable, as well as interesting. Hope you found this post as interesting as I found your party.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 10-24-2005, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[ister]

Gnomes can't triple class. Too bad really.

I believe that summons are somewhat nerfed in HOF. Hopefully some one else will come along and confirm.

[Dundee Slaytern]

You want to conduct comparison experiments on HoF mode? Man, talk about masochism. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

First off, it is very viable to start off with a new party on HoF. You can easily reach level 3-4 for the whole party without even stepping out of town. This is because HoF mode also affects Quest XP. So start yapping, and start leveling.

Rule number one of HoF. Forget about serious roleplaying. It is going to be all about power, and how much punishment you can take and give. Sure, you can maintain some measure of roleplaying like your Cleric/Ranger never siding with evil, or not screwing over innocents because you are a goody goody, but expect to suspend your sense of disbelief when it comes to resting, fighting, or pre-preparations for boss battles.

A Bard is VERY useful on HoF mode because of his War Chant of Sith, which grants Defensive bonuses such as -2 AC and DAMAGE RESISTANCE. If you thought those Orcs in the caves were tough, wait till you meet the stuff awaiting you in Dorn's Deep, the Burial Isles, and TotL. Orcs are PANSIES once you reach level 12+ and have appropriate gear.

AC is still useful against the higher level monsters, but you will need to heavily depend on your Cleric's buffs if you intend to seriously melee for any length of time. -10 AC is a joke, -15 AC is laughable, you will want something like -20 AC or better.

If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times. A Bard should NEVER be considered as a backup Mage on HoF mode, but is instead, a Mage of last resort, or a Mage to prebuff the party. A Bard casting, is a Bard not singing. It takes an entire round for the song to kick in, even if you see the symbol on your party members. You can at most, afford to cast one or two offensive spells before the opposing sides clash, and the singing becomes more important.

"Good gravy! Why am I hurting so much from his slashing damage? Oh right, the Bard is not singing. Sing, foole! Sing!"

Without any form of damage resistance, enemies will easily slice through 200+HP within 3-4 hits. Less if they critical.

The easiest time will probably be in the Severed Hand, as that is when you are of considerably higher level than the monsters. Take your time to farm the monsters there.

That said, I only have one tank when I play on HoF mode, because it is easier to pump up one person's defence to the gazooks, rather than split the goods between two. Summons make up for the rest of the meat shields. Archery and spells are still the most efficient, and safest way to get through HoF mode.

Speaking of which, summons do benefit from HoF mode, and you will be heavily dependant on them to absorb damage throughout the whole game.

Lastly, about Generalist/Specialist. I already mentioned in the past that on HoF mode, you will be hardpressed to find enough scrolls to fill up your spell slots. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Throw in a few Rings, Robes and whatstuff, and a Generalist Mage will have too many spells to use up. Unless you like pain and constant death a lot, you will be resting a lot on HoF mode, so your Mage can afford to fling everything out for every battle. More so since you have no way of casting more than one spell per round.

[Dundee Slaytern]

PS: To Noble Nick

You might seriously want to consider a one time trip to HoF land. If only so that you can experience our perspective better. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Reading about Mountain Everest is one thing, but actually climbing it is a whole different plane.

[Aerich]

Ok, here's my 2 cents (or a little more )

1) Lvl 9 seems like a nice round number. On normal difficulty, that's about Dorn's Deep, on insane, it's about the end of DE. I'm not sure what you meant by:

How much XP can I gain if I play through HoF with TotL and do all quests?

If you are referring to playing through HoW (not HoF) with TotL and doing all quests, it's about 2.3 million xp on normal, 150% of that on hard, 200% of that on insane. I'm not finished playing through HoF yet, but I expect you will get into the high 20s with 2-class characters. The bard will max out quick, and the paladin should max out also.

2) Melee is much more powerful in IWD1 HoF than it is in IWD2 HoF. The monsters have vastly increased HP, so they last longer, but they don't have the massive bonuses to hit, damage, and saves that they do in IWD2 HoF.

Consider this: a high level warrior is capable of about 2.5 hits per round, and should be doing at least 10 damage per hit. As most monsters don't have a discernably better AC (at least for my high level characters), that's 25 dmg per round, not including the possibility of critical hits. With saving throws, you will find yourself hard pressed to do that much damage with a spellcaster, round after round.

As an illustrative example, my HoF party walked through the last three levels of Dragon's Eye in one day, without resting. You can't do that without some good melee power (and lots of summons).

3) Summons do have increased HP, but they don't get the same multipliers that unaffiliated monsters have. They are comparatively weaker, but still exceedingly useful.

4) I would break down the Pally vs Cleric/Ranger debate like this:

Pally advantages: dedicated tank, edged weapons and bows, probably a better AC and definitely better saves (+2 class bonus). Will level up much quicker, with correspondingly better HP. Disadvantage: Will almost certainly max out levels on HoF.

Cleric/Ranger advantages: better spell access, will continue to level, gives the party a good cleric for the resurrection/major healing spells, and the Shield of Lathander spells.

It's a tough call. Melee advantage goes to the paladin, spell advantage goes to the C/R. The paladin will give your party a bona fide tank that can focus almost entirely on tank duties, the C/R gives you access to important and otherwise inaccessible spells. The Lathander spells are fantastic in IWD1, btw. Edit: the paladin will get access at higher levels.

5) Dual class character #2 at lvl 15. As NobleNick pointed out already, 15 makes sense for the extra PP, and will give you a good enough Thaco to hit just about anything you want. As you have another druid to provide quick access to druid spells (e.g. summons), and XP is not a factor...

6) Do the triple class. With your game experience, you shouldn't need to scout, so you can keep the F/M/T fairly safe. It will not make you too weak. Don't forget that a mage is constrained by his/her ability to find scrolls; a HoF mage, even one that is not a raw rookie, will probably still gain levels faster than it can get high level scrolls.

[ 10-24-2005, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[Aerich]

Hmm, just saw Dundee's post; he posted whilst I was typing. I'll add a few more comments and tips.

Keep your Fighter/Druids out of melee combat. In fact, keep everything out of melee combat as much as possible. Dundee's recommendation to buff up one character to take the pain is a good one, which is one reason why I would recommend the pally. It makes a good complement to summons.

Spells with status effects are much more important than damage dealing spells. A Held monster is a good monster. Deal with it at your leisure. Confusion, Chaos, and Horror are nice as well. Even Cloak of Fear can save your butt once in a while. A Web is worth 10 Melf's Acid Arrows.

Dundee said it already and I've said it already, but I'll say it again: keep your party out of melee. Most things you meet will have hundreds more HP than you, so toe-to-toe is out of the question unless you have some major advantages (Mirror Image, great AC, Lathander's Shield, damage resistance). If I go into melee with more than one character (the extra-buffed paladin) on HoF, it's because I'm attacking 4 on 1 and conserving spells. Almost everything that closes to melee with me is badly damaged from spells or a missile barrage.

Edit: one more thing on character creation: you can save yourself one stat point on Constitution with that character by having a 17 Con instead of 18. The Con bonus is split 3 ways (just like the HP and the XP) and rounded down, so you get the same HP with a 17 that you do with an 18.

[ 10-25-2005, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[ZFR]

Wow. Thank you very much for your input all of you.

I think I will take cleric/ranger. The thing is I played a paladin with almost every party I created in IWD, while I never played a C/R, and would like to try one. Though perhaps like Dundee suggested experimenting with new classes might not be a good idea in HoF [img]tongue.gif[/img] . I'll probably take the triple class too as per Aerich's sugestion.

I'm used to my mages mainly casting offensive spells, but I can see how a fireball will do little more than scratch a 200HP monster. I'll have to get rid of offensive spell habit and learn to use web, hold monster and the like. Something which came with difficulty in IWD2.

I'll go with level 15 druid. I was afraid with such high level I'll end up having him with full powers for the last battle only, but I guess that won't be the case with HoF XP.
I could still use some info as to how much XP I will gain throughout the game. If it is like Aerich said that a Pally can max out (8000k+) then I guess my fighter druid will be safe. And so will be my triple class.

I'll keep you posted should I come up with any new ideas for this. And I will come back to this thread once I actually start playing the game.

Once again, thank you all. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: PS: To Noble Nick You might seriously want to consider a one time trip to HoF land. If only so that you can experience our perspective better. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Point well taken, and I intend to eventually join you out in the deep water; but I don't know that it will be any time soon...

Good point on the Bard's singing/spelling. In a normal game it is typically just a minor annoyance to go without the song for a round; but I can see how it could be much more serious than that on HoF.

Thanks for reminding me about the damage resistance of the War Chant. I have been playing around with the other songs, to see if I had missed anything with my War Chant "tunnel vision." I was about to conclude that the "Ballad of 3 Heros" might be a good substitute. Well, it is a good substitute for a party that currently boasts 4 Fighters and a Cleric, that can typically toast anything before it can close to melee; but I'll go back to the Chant when things start getting up close and personal.

I've enjoyed your and Aerich's pointers in the last few posts.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!

[NobleNick]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: A Bard is VERY useful on HoF mode because of his War Chant of Sith, which grants Defensive bonuses such as -2 AC and DAMAGE RESISTANCE... If I have said it once, I have said it a thousand times. A Bard should NEVER be considered as a backup Mage on HoF mode, but is instead, a Mage of last resort, or a Mage to prebuff the party. A Bard casting, is a Bard not singing. It takes an entire round for the song to kick in, even if you see the symbol on your party members. You can at most, afford to cast one or two offensive spells before the opposing sides clash, and the singing becomes more important. "Good gravy! Why am I hurting so much from his slashing damage? Oh right, the Bard is not singing. Sing, foole! Sing!" Speaking of which, summons do benefit from HoF mode, and you will be heavily dependant on them to absorb damage throughout the whole game. Lastly, about Generalist/Specialist. I already mentioned in the past that on HoF mode, you will be hardpressed to find enough scrolls to fill up your spell slots. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Throw in a few Rings, Robes and whatstuff, and a Generalist Mage will have too many spells to use up. Unless you like pain and constant death a lot, you will be resting a lot on HoF mode, so your Mage can afford to fling everything out for every battle. More so since you have no way of casting more than one spell per round.

O.K., hold on a second. I just realized something: If you do have the Bard along singing the Chant, your party does not need to rest. Oh, yes, they need to stand around a bit, listening to the Bard sing them back to full health; but no "nighty-night, shut-eye" sleep time. This means that the Mages spells stock will almost certainly be the limiting factor in how often the party sleeps, which means number of slots is a factor in game play, if not in how survivable each fight is.

On the Bard casting spells: Just wanted to point out that I typically use her as a Mage of FIRST resort; doing as you implied, with a pre-buff or first round spell, like an initial Web, Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, Monster Summon, or Skull Trap. Then it's off to singing for the rest of the battle. After the heat of the battle is over, there is clean-up crew duty: Finishing off those pesky Trolls with a Fireball, Ag. Scorcher, or maybe just Burning Hands. Then there is the occasional maintenance stuff: Knock and Identify, for when your other experts are stymied. Thus the Bard's arcane ability can help out the main Mage quite a bit.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!