Incomprehensible beauty... godlike perfection

[Lavindathar]

Originally posted by Yorick: Kathen, just as a matter of interest, what would you need to see/sense/feel/experience to accept God existed? What do you determine as 'necessary proof'.

I'll answer myself, cos its a similar thing I think to Kathen.

I aint waitin for an apparition or nothing, I guess just a feeling so you know. But, being skeptical, will it ever come?

[LordKathen]

How about god comes down here and stops all the killing and starving and cruelty in the world with his presense. But this is all a part of his "plan" right? He would need to shake my hand and say lets help these people get some food and make them better.

How was that? Was that to sarcastic? Was that inapropriate? Off topic? Flaming?

Yorich, in all your articulate writings here on IW, Im sure your intelligent enough to know something about Darwin. Well he has my answers, and LOTS of tangable evidence to his theories. I dont run my life around supernatural ideas or feelings of joy (or guilt).

Once again, bygons Yorich. You sound like a passionate inteligent man. And I respect that. Maybe you should stick to just loving god and not worrying about what an athiest wants or thinks. Thats all I was trying to say in the first place.

I am a musician also, we probly could actually agree on something if we could change this subject.

[Lavindathar]

Sod agreeing, FIST FIGHT.

Just messing, but Kathen, I think your answer was spot on their, and justified.

[Yorick]

Cloudy, I'm kind of discussing with Kathen and Lav, and it's a related topic. Bear with for a wee moment.

Originally posted by LordKathen: How about god comes down here and stops all the killing and starving and cruelty in the world with his presense. But this is all a part of his "plan" right? He would need to shake my hand and say lets help these people get some food and make them better.

How would you, if you were God, balance humans free will, with preventing harm?

Also, how is God meant to "come down here"? The demand assumes that God is like any other created lifeform and inhabits a single point of time and space. Yet, Christians who believe in God believe he is 'omnipresent' and outside his creation. Pantheists believe he IS creation.

The only way the creator awareness could 'come down here' would be to become part of the creation. As a human perhaps. Yet the last ime he was here, we killed him. Strung him up on a cross. Even so, millions don't believe he was who he said he was.

However, as per your resquest, he did shake peoples hands, feed people, and heal the sick. He also empowered people who believe in him to heal the sick as well.

An important aspect of the healing though was FAITH. When Jesus healed leperosy, he told the leper "Your faith has made you well".

As far as stopping the killing and starving, well, aside from removing our free will, there is a solution to all that, and that lies in Jesus teachings of turning the other cheek, loving and praying for your enemies and those that persecute you. Feeding the homeless and the poor has long been a domain of church organisations, and the principals of leaving food out for beggars and vagrants is found in the old testament part of the bible.

Put simply, Gods given us the guidebook to achieving world peace and zero hunger, but also given us the freedom to reject that guidebook and look out for ourselves.

Interesting balance.

How was that? Was that to sarcastic? Was that inapropriate? Off topic? Flaming?

Not at all.

Yorich, in all your articulate writings here on IW, Im sure your intelligent enough to know something about Darwin. Well he has my answers, and LOTS of tangable evidence to his theories. I dont run my life around supernatural ideas or feelings of joy (or guilt).

Darwin still believed a creator breathed life into the first living cell. Darwinism and God are not preclusive to one another.

Once again, bygons Yorich. You sound like a passionate inteligent man. And I respect that. Maybe you should stick to just loving god and not worrying about what an athiest wants or thinks. Thats all I was trying to say in the first place. I am a musician also, we probly could actually agree on something if we could change this subject.[/qb]

Vive le difference. If I wanted to talk to someone who agreed with everything I'd look in the mirror - even then I wouldn't find zero contention. Self conflict is an intersting reality.

In any case, knowing what an atheist thinks is precisely the point. You called me on 'not presuming to know what you think'. Fair enough. I'm inviting you to tell me. Correct me.

What would you require - honestly - to accept Gods reality. There is no need for contention between us. We don't have to agree to be without conflict in a conversation.

[ 01-21-2003, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Lavindathar]

Originally posted by Yorick: Darwin still believed a creator breathed life into the first living cell. Darwinism and God are not preclusive to one another.

This is my sticking point. I believe God/something created the first piece, then science took hold. But if I do believe in God creating this one piece, I also believe he knew that it would be like this and take form like this. (posted this earlier)

I like your arguements Yorick! Makes me think about it a lot more, so thankyou for writing in such detail. Much appreciated!

Until I feel that one special feeling, I'll keep my stance. God created one particle of life, then he planned for Science to do the rest!

But to counter your points, if God could create life itself, be creation, surely he can control it? Otherwise, he is out of control, and not what he professes to be.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Lavindathar: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Darwin still believed a creator breathed life into the first living cell. Darwinism and God are not preclusive to one another.

This is my sticking point. I believe God/something created the first piece, then science took hold. But if I do believe in God creating this one piece, I also believe he knew that it would be like this and take form like this. (posted this earlier)

I like your arguements Yorick! Makes me think about it a lot more, so thankyou for writing in such detail. Much appreciated!

Until I feel that one special feeling, I'll keep my stance. God created one particle of life, then he planned for Science to do the rest!

But to counter your points, if God could create life itself, be creation, surely he can control it? Otherwise, he is out of control, and not what he professes to be.[/QUOTE]I agree. But what if this is all part of his plan? What if "human perfect bliss" is not something we are meant to experience in this life? What if there is a reason for pain, for negativity and for free will?

What happens when you look at life like that? What happens if you look for the positives that arise out of a negative experience rather than solely wishing it hadn't happened at all?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Lavindathar: I like your arguements Yorick! Makes me think about it a lot more, so thankyou for writing in such detail. Much appreciated!

No worries Lav.

[Lavindathar]

Originally posted by Yorick: I agree. But what if this is all part of his plan? What if "human perfect bliss" is not something we are meant to experience in this life? What if there is a reason for pain, for negativity and for free will? What happens when you look at life like that? What happens if you look for the positives that arise out of a negative experience rather than solely wishing it hadn't happened at all?

But why do this? Is it to emulate how good heaven is? Does it need to be compared to the "hell on earth" to make it look better?

How does he pick who recieves the shit and who doesnt?

Wouldn't it be better to have everyone lead normal lives, no war, everyone do ok for themselves? And then in heaven let us fly and stuff, as well as all have everything. Sounds better to me.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Lavindathar: Wouldn't it be better to have everyone lead normal lives, no war, everyone do ok for themselves? And then in heaven let us fly and stuff, as well as all have everything. Sounds better to me.

Because we have a valid choice. We can choose to reject God and choose to not live for eternity with him. An eternity with someone you don't love and don't want to be with would be hell right?

[Lavindathar]

Ok, lost me a little bit.

So, hell is now "not being with God",and having everything you wanted rather than sitting in an eternal fire with Satan?

Sorry!