New player progress report (long, some SPOILERS)

[seclists]

(Apologies if you get two copies of this - the link died on me when I was posting this for the first time.)

Believe it or not, I am a *new* player of this not-so-new game. The reason being that at my current age (yeah, I'm one of those old geezers who played their first CRPGs in the early 1980s) I don't play much games anymore, and quite accidentally picked this game from the bargain bin of the local store. I turned out to be a fabulous find.

I had some technical problems (mostly with sound as you probably guessed), but I have sorted them out to the degree that the game is definitely playable now. Special thanks to Wolfie for helpful hints. At least I was lucky enough to get the "1.2.4" version which reputedly has none of the game-stopping huge bugs.

Ok, let's cut the background crap. So I created my party of adventurers, rambled through the monastery and on to Arnika... or that was the plan. As it happened, I had heard/read a "helpful" hint somewhere that the monastery was a good place to gather XP. That's what I did until my characters were around level 6 or so - and started running into the nastier slimes on a regular basis. Then I was like "Oy! This place is bad for my health!" and decided to flee looking for some inhabited areas.

It did not get much better. One of the very first encounters on the road to Arnika was with not 5 nor even 6 but 8 Piercer Modais. They absolutely slaughtered my party. I reloaded. Next I encountered two hordes of plant things that looked like eldritch horrors from a Lovecraft story.One horde poisons my party, the other horde puts my party to sleep. Reload. This time I am cornered by 6 Crusher Crabs that are more interested in my center-row spellcasters than in my front-row meleers. Reload. (You get the picture.) My party quickly learned to appreciate the "better side of valour". The next time they saw the ominous red dots on the radar, I hit the "run" key and made a run for it. My party finally reached Arnika, panting and exhausted, but in one piece. Compared to their recent jaunts, the Savant Guards & Troopers that they ran into very soon after arriving here were little worse than target dummies.

In Arnika, things started looking brighter. I hired both Myles and Vi, but promptly discarded Myles. I had recruited him because my party lacked a pickpocketing thief, but very soon I grew tired of his whiny voice and relative uselessness in Combat situations (when compared to my own characters). To be frank, hearing him croak "He'li, my love" the umpteenth time was the final straw. Myles *had* to go. Besides, "pickpocket->fail->reload" is not my idea of how a game should be played (I also hear that is not guaranteed to work very well in 1.2.4 anyway). Bye, Myles, and you can keep the experience levels you gained with us as a "golden handshake". Don't call us, we'll call you.

Vi, on the other hand, can easily hold her own in Combat and has already taken her place as the blunt weapon/polearm specialist in my party. Her cheat death ability means that I probably don't have to worry too much about her health in combat (making her an ideal front-line meleer), and even if things start looking bleak, she can throw in some healing magic. A very welcome addition to my roster of characters.

I believe that I now have explored all of Arnika (well, at least everything that can be explored at this stage). Yeah, I made it to the bank vault and opened *all* doors (even the 10-tumbler one, although this turned out to be a bad move - there was an alarm and the bank personnel became angry; I had to reload). It has been a romp compared to the wilderness, even with the occasional savant henchmen and one insanely large horde of brigands/highwaymen/whatever thrown in. Target practice. I believe I am now prepared for new challenges. I have already made some forays to the south, towards the next town (Trynton?). I had an interesting experience when my sleeping party – not exactly in top form after a fight against a Sige + 5 Piercer Modais - was ambushed by 5 Juggernauts. My main spellcasters ran out of mana in that combat, and the meleers lost a lot of health (even with guardian angels on them almost all the time), but my party emerged victorious with no casualties. This victory reinforced my confidence in my party's readiness to venture further. The previously challenging creatures - high-level jellies, bats, plants, whatever - are simply so much more meat for the grinder now.

I am eager to find what the game still has in store for me. If you (=seasoned Wizardry 8 veterans) can give me any ideas of what to expect, I would appreciate that. No, I don't want straight spoilers, just some helpful directions, like, e.g. "You might want to develop this skill for some character / pick this spell / carry this item". I merely want to avoid situations where I discover that I should have made some critical decision earlier on in the game...

Here's a brief summary of my party. I'll welcome any suggestions that you might be willing to share. Please don't be overly critical with me - keep in mind that this is my first party and when I created it, I had not read *any* Wizardry 8 hints or walkthroughs. [img]smile.gif[/img]

1 & 2: Melee "tanks"

1. Lizardman Lord
For CRPGs, I always want a Paladin-type character as my party leader whenever they are available, for extra colour as well as healing support. The Lord looked like the closest equivalent, and despite the rather pathetic mental stats of a lizardman, he has become a very dependable second healer for the party. Dual/2H weapons.
He has already unlocked one of the high-level abilities, the Iron Skin. Now he is going for the Power Strike.

2. Dracon Samurai
I considered a "plain" fighter here, but I'm bored of plain fighters in CRPGs. Samurai sounded more interesting, especially with the "critical hit" ability. The innate fear resistance has also turned out to be a most excellent ability! Dual/2H weapons. He's lagging behind in magic development mainly because I stupidly picked combat only spells for this char, and the samurai never gets a chance to practice them (always busy fighting!). I will remember to pick or buy some spells that can be cast outside combat for him to practice. Currently he is wielding Bloodlust/Shillelagh (for the KO effect). I'm not sure if this is the optimal weapon combo at this stage, but at least he totally 'rips' when he gets into the melee range. I experimented with a Shining (Gleaming, whatever) longsword, and while it worked very well against single powerful opponents such as the bank vault golem (blinding such creatures could really turn the tide), it made fighting multiple opponents very confusing and frustrating since the blinded opponents would start running away. I really hate hunting down stray leftover opponents from earlier fights (which has to be done anyway, because otherwise they could team-up with new randomly spawned enemies).

3 & 4: Long range specialists

3. Mook Ranger
The bow specialist (in the melee range, the axe specialist) in my party. Also the money pumper (through alchemy). The only downside is that his mental stats are so low that he has to mix hundreds of potions before he gained a single alchemy point through practice. (I will remember to increase his pathetic piety a little to counter this.) So far, he has gained a whopping *2* Alchemy skill points from mixing potions & casting spells (or attempting to); the rest have been purchased as level gains.
In other respects, a well balanced and useful party member. Especially with the auto-search capability and the double-shot crossbow (*grin*). I wonder how much Engineering would be required for a tripe-shot?

4. Mook Gadgeteer
Having no previous Wizardry experience (except from Wizardry I or II in the 1980s, mostly faded from my memory), I somehow managed to seriously miscomprehend the manual & the game concept. I was under the false notion that in order to "solve" the game you must have someone who can understand & operate modern equipment in your party, i.e., I was expecting to find something like a computer that could only be operated by a gadgeteer (and if you didn't have one, you'd be stuck/game over - anybody ever played Bard's Tale III / Thief of Fate, btw?). Of course I now realize I how wrong I must have been. I was also very disappointed with the gadgeteer for a *long* time. By the time I reached Arnika I had already made up my mind that I'd either change this character into a bard or replace him with one. I had tons of bard instruments (and no bard to play them!), and no exciting gadgets to begin with. The Omnigun seemed to be doing a massive 3 points of damage per round (on the average), admittedly with the poorest possible ammo.
Then I happened to find the gadgeteer "spotlight" on the Web. After that, I promptly decided to forget any dreams of a bard. I already had the lightning rod, and my gadgeteer was effectively reborn once he started using it!
My only regret here is that the gadgeteer is a male character. I blame the manual that stated that the gender would have very little gameplay significance. This character could have benefited enormously from a certain early "women only" item, and I might have just as well made him female (in order to make the gender distribution in my party more even), if the manual had but *hinted* that some of the items you find might be gender-specific.

5 & 6: Spell support (characters who cast spells every turn in combat)

5. Rawulf Priest, replaced with an Elf Bishop
Here I made a choice that turned out to be a bad one. I originally settled on the very conventional (CRPG-conventional, that is) "one healer, one offensive caster" duo, i.e., a priest and a mage. This seemed to work ok at first, but somewhere around char level 6 - 8 I realized that the Priest was starting to "lag behind" compared to the other characters. While his healing & protection spells were a splendid advantage (with my melee fighters guardian-angeled, the the Arnika bank golem didn't even scratch them!), he didn't seem to become more and more powerful like the other characters.
Around this stage (still in Arnika) I first discovered the W8 web forums (such as this) and read some stuff about spells and spellcasters. I realized that with my current party setup I would completely miss out on some of the most popular spells (Insanity, Haste, etc.), since I had no Psionic caster nor a bard in my party. I considered turning the priest into a bishop, but unfortunately he was a rawulf with a pathetic Int score. His level would be in the late "teens" before he could become a bishop even if I invested 3 points per level in Intelligence!
Goodbye, Gurnemanz I the Priest. Welcome to the party, Gurnemanz II the Bishop!
The second Gurnemanz (Bishop) concentrates on Priest spells (to replace his predecessor) and Psionic spells (that had been previously unavailable). I spent all the money I had made through alchemy for spellbooks from Braffit, and that seems to have been a wise move: the new Gurnemanz character has several spell picks in store for the later, more powerful spells.
There was a brief hiccup in the availability of Water spells (Rest All, Cure Poison, Superman, etc.), but Gurnemanz II is gaining on nicely (at first, gaining several levels per every encounter with Savant Guards, Troopers, Gunners and such), and it is very obvious that he will eventually become a vastly more powerful character than the original Gurnemanz could ever have been (with the sole exception of the hit point total).

6. Elf Mage
Your standard witch-type character. Always casting Fire Balls, Web, Missile Shield, X-Ray and Enchant Blade at maximum available power, and, as a consequence, gaining magic skills in quantum leaps. I am planning to get the Portal spell for this character as soon as possible (if it does what I assume it does, it will be invaluable), but currently I am slightly unsure which spells would be good picks.

Currently the characters are level 7 (the bishop) - 9 (most of the rest).

(Edit - fixed some incorrect/misleading sentences & facts.)

[ 12-19-2003, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]

[Ugaya]

A male gadgeteer isn't that bad. The items you refer to help while traveling and running but in the heat of battle they don't make that big difference. The gadgets (or instruments) just need too much stamina, replenishing spells are much more important than any necklace.
Your party looks fine, you will ascend. Wizardry isn't like BT III, it can be beaten with almost every party combination. (BTW, if you liked the Bard's Tale games you might be interested in www.devilwhiskey.com. It's much more than a simple remake but comes very close to the BT-atmosphere IMO.)
I would suggest getting some protective magic (soul shield, elemental shield). The first part of Wiz 8 is all about melee, that will change. Additionally I found "Sane Mind" to be vital, a turncoated tank is an interesting but sometimes devastating experience (especially for your spellcasters).

[Nightowl2]

Yeah, overall your party looks pretty solid now; it's just a matter of proper development and you will be good to go for the peak (eventually!).

Have to agree with Ugaya, you need the element shield and soul shield. Also, magic screen if you don't have it. This is very good because you cast it outside of combat and have some protection for ALL types of spells. My parties always go around with enchanted blade, armor plate, magic screen and missile shield running. Soul and element go up in the tougher fights.

Nightowl2

[seclists]

Great, thanks for the excellent advice.

My party already had Magic Screen (as well as Missile Shield, X-Ray, Enchant Blade and Armourskin or whatever it is called) "always on", i.e. I always cast them immediately after resting - too bad that the game does not allow me to write a script for this routine. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You probably already knew what was coming, and that this was far from sufficient. Case in point: my first encounter with 2 Cultists (who were accompanied by Higardi Highwaymen). Despite the Magic Screen, they killed my spellcasters (#5 and #6) in three rounds. The other characters, moderately or seriously injured, were trying to reach the Cultists through the highwaymen who were swarming around the remains of my party. That's when one of the cultists decided to summon an elemental. And that's when *I* decided to reload. I enjoy challenge, but there's a fine line between thrilling odds and masochism. I don't mind the former, but...

In any case: the next time I ran into Cultists & Highwaymen, my party was better prepared. I got the Element Shield up and running after only 1 incoming fireball, and suddenly, the chances of survival seemed much better. Not having to worry about the fireballs (or smell the flowers growing on him, as happened the last time), my bishop could use one round to cast an Insanity spell on the enemy air elemental as soon as it gated in. Then my mage thought that the poor elemental probably felt lonely and summoned a greater fire elemental of our own to keep it company. The two elementals entertained the highwaymen and kept them admirably busy, allowing me to concentrate on the Cultists. Ahh, sweet revenge! I actually made the cultits insane before finishing them off, and that made the revenge even more satisfying.

Next, I bought a book with the Haste spell from Crock (thanks, Crock!). Oops, my bishop cannot read it - probably because he has ZERO Fire spells and ZERO fire skill & spellpoints. Oops!

So I need to get a fire spell for him to practice. Mmm, I could get him Hypnotic Lure, but as it happens, the gadgeteer has just recently combined two 'goos' into a lamp that casts hypnotic lure, so I don't want to waste a spell pick on a redundant Hypnotic Lure. Besides, it would be *nice* if the bishop developed Alchemy as well (in addition to Psi & Priest spells) so he could one day summon an elemental, maybe.

According to the manual, there is a low-level Alchemy only spell that also is a Fire spell: Blinding Flash. It is a Combat-only spell, though, but if I let my bishop cast it in *every* Combat, *every* round (until out of mana), he ought to be developing both Fire and Alchemy nicely, and will eventually be able to read the Haste book as well as get Alchemy spells.

Or have I misunderstood how the skill/spell system works?

[ 12-23-2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: seclists ]

[Wereboar]

Next, I bought a book with the Haste spell from Crock (thanks, Crock!). Oops, my bishop cannot read it - probably because he has ZERO Fire spells and ZERO fire skill & spellpoints. Oops!

Haste is a level 4 psionic spell. So you need 45 points in psionic to learn it (and must be bishop level 8).

You need 0 points for level 1 spells, 15 for level 2, ... 90 for level 7 spells.
For spells that are in several scools (summon elemental is wizardry and alchemy, for example), you need this number of points in either scool. You get 10% of your realm skill as bonus - so with 30 fire skill, you'd only need 42 psionic to learn haste.

[Nightowl2]

I wouldn't recommend blinding flash as a practice spell for fire. The problem is that blinded monsters always run away, and tracking them down is a real pain. Used to be, critters would just stumble blindly where they were, but in Wiz 8 they changed that so most of the time enemies take off. Once in awhile, they stumble, but mostly they retreat.

Fireball, 3rd level mage spell, is a good one. You need wizardry 30 for that one. You can work on your alchemy by mixing powders and potions.

Insanity is good against those Higardi bandits/brigands/whatever. Try silence on enemy spellcasters.

Does anyone in your party have a good mythology skill? When you right-click on an opponent, you can see details about them, such as their hitpoints and resistances. This is very handy!

Nightowl2

[Xen]

[img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] Welcome to Ironworks seclists
! [img]graemlins/thewave.gif[/img]

welcome seclists! [img]graemlins/balloons.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/balloons.gif[/img]

[babar]

Originally posted by Nightowl2: Does anyone in your party have a good mythology skill? When you right-click on an opponent, you can see details about them, such as their hitpoints and resistances. This is very handy! Nightowl2

Just make sure you're not an idiot like me and have 'use ctrl-right-click for info' set in the preferences. I had my mythology up to 80+ before I figured out why I wasn't getting any info when right-clicking.

[seclists]

Thanks again for the excellent tips! In the end, the question about studying Alchemy with Blinding Flash became a moot one. Very soon after that post, my party discovered a Book of Corrosion in the swamp, and since then, the Priest has been diligently casting Acid Splash (7) in combat whenever he has nothing more urgent to do. His Alchemy skill is advancing slowly but certainly.

I've finally had a few free days (between Christmas & New Year), and I've made some progress again. My chars are ~lvl 15 right now, and they are doing quite well. The party composition, as regards the NPCs, has changed slightly. Vi is still a welcome and useful member, but I have also found a useful 8th member (or even two). First I met an android ("RFS 81", IIRC) that speaks funnily but performs quite well in melee. However, since my party already had 3 superb meleers (Vi, Lord, Samurai) as well as the Ranger who could join the melee if necessary, the android did not seem quite as useful for me as a certain other NPC I came across: Saxx, the Rhino, eh, Umpani Bard. Finally someone I could give all those bard instruments to! Once I got Saxx, I immediately left the android at the Umpani Base and headed for Arnika where I had dumped the bard gear in a chest (upstairs, at Antone's place, along with all the weapons, ammo, clothes, armours and shields that I had no use for at the moment). My heart sank when I could not find everything in the chest anymore! I scrolled through the list *several* times, carefully, one item at a time, and some of the more interesting instruments (Chaos Drone, Rousing Drums, Siren's Howl) had mysteriously DISAPPEARED.

So Saxx had to cope with what was left.

However - when I later came back to Arnika and scrolled through the list again, *this time* I could find the Chaos Drone etc. in the list! So I assume it was a bug in the game engine: maybe there is a limit on how many objects can be displayed in a chest list? If there are more objects in the chest, you have to take some away to access the rest? I don't know.

With *both* a bard and a gadgeteer, my party feels very strong now. Yeah, I have heard that NPCs might not be willing to enter all areas in the game, but I don't care. Wherever Saxx will go, he is welcome; if he won't go, fine, then I'll just have to do that area without him.

I have now encountered what must be a new record in *tough* combats (for me, so far, that is). I believe this was a set encounter: 1 Sorceress Queen, 2 Death Lords, and 6 Cultists in a "Cathedral". My first attempt was a dismal failure. More than half of my party were slain easily (even with Soul Shield 7, Magic Screen 7, Element Shield 7, and all other possible protection buffs in place), and there were still the Death Lords and the Sorceress Queen plus some random Water Elemental left. Too bad that the dead members included my gadgeteer, all healers and spellcasters.

I decided to come back much (=several character levels) later and this time, I resorted to stealth tactics instead of "Charge!". First, the Mook Ranger cast Chameleon on my party, and I succeeded in snatching the gadget at the entrance without initiating a combat. Combined with electrodes, that turned out to be a very nice gadget, btw! Next, I wanted to see if I could lure the creatures into a narrow place where I could fight them more easily. I tried this with Hypnotic Lure. To my surprise, only 3 monsters (cultists) came out - I could initiate a combat with them only without engaging the rest! Needless to say, the Cultists were taken out easily. I repeated this, and again 3 Cultists came out. Scratch 3 more cultists. Without any summoned elementals, the Death Lords & the Sorceress Queen seemed much more "doable". I (foolishly) charged in now to take them out, and of course failed again. Reload, & change of tactics, take two. I initiated combat (Sword icon) just outside the doorway, cast Soul Shield, Element Shield, etc. and stepped into their view range (to prevent the Combat from ending prematurely). The SQ & 2 DLs started casting spells. Next turn, stepped back *outside* their view range to make them close in on me (rather than the other way around). I also summoned a powerful (level 6 or 7) Elemental this turn. The elemental charged right into the Cathedral to duke it out with the 1 DL & the SQ, while the other DL exited the Cathedral to engage my characters. I was able to off the DL conveniently, even though he managed to off my bishop first with mere 3 swings of his mighty sword (he seemed more interested in swinging at him than at my ready&willing front-line meleers). A fair exchange, though. Resurrected with Resurrection Powder, the only thing that the Bishop missed was apparently the XP for the DL. I retreated (I was not in the view range of the SQ & the remaining DL), and the Combat ended. I healed everybody & rested up. One more Combat (using the same "lure them out" tactic as last time), and the SQ and the remaining DL were done for. Yeah, maybe I feel a bit "cowardly" for doing it like this, but I just cannot see how else I *could* have managed it.

The other set combat, in the crypt of the cathedral, was a huge disappointment. I was expecting something even tougher, but my party did not even build a sweat against those pathetic mummies. The loot from the crypt was very nice and well worth the effort of killing the SQ & her goons, though!

Currently my characters are wandering around in the Mountain Wilderness. The combats are not very challenging here, but they do give fairly good XP. In the swamp & SE wilderness, I could get some slightly challenging unicorns (Diremares and such), but they are pain to fight since they start running away as soon as the combat begins. I wonder if this is intentional?

Some specific questions at this stage:

1) I'm looking for a place that gives very good XP *and* a reasonable challenge. The Ascension Peak sounds like a promising place, but I'm unsure if I should go there now. Will I screw up my game if I go there now? Will the bomb explode if I go there, or something other wild?

2) Regarding the access to AP. I read somewhere that the route to the Ascension Peak would be blocked, but at least in my game it is not. I can enter the Ascension Peak area from the Mountain Wilderness. So I assume that this route will become inaccessible at some later stage, right? And if so, is the following scenario feasible: cast Set Portal somewhere in the AP area (to get in) and have another caster Set Portal somewhere else (to get out again). Or is just a waste of portals?

3) After the SQ encounter, I'm curious how much harder the combats in this game will get later on. Was this only a small sampler of what to expect? The thought of an even worse encounter really gives me the creeps. On the other hand, if it did *not* get any harder, I would be disappointed, yes. Any specific areas where to expect fiendishly challenging combats?

4) I am now allied with the Umpani (to get Saxx) and have already done two missions for them. I'm wondering: is there a way to be friendly with both sides (the Umpani and the T'Rang) and to get missions from both? I believe I've seen it mentioned that it *is* possible but dangerous. Here I would appreciate very specific directions (and even spoilers), as I really don't want to ruin my game in attempting this.

5) My Lizardman Lord character: once he has developed his spellcasting skills as high as I want them, would it be a feasible idea to turn him into a fighter (for the fighter "berserk" attack)? I assume that he could still cast the spells (just not learn any new spells or advance the spell skills), right?

6) Another question about the Lizardman Lord. Once I got Fang and Diamond Eyes, I distributed the weapons follows: the Lord got Bloodlust & Diamond Eyes, the Samurai got Fang & Enchanted Wakizashi (so he could switch to a missile weapon when not in melee range - not possible with the cursed Bloodlust). However, something bizarre happened to the Lord. He almost never attacks with Diamond Eyes even though his Dual Weapons skill is somewhere around 100! What's up? Is it because his mace skill is so poor? (He had not used a mace previously.)

7) What's up with the Hypnotic Lure? I like it, but it sometimes makes the monsters behave verrry strangely. They "stare at the lure" and wander off to the distance. Or stare at the ground (tanto wasps occasionally do this). Or even stick their heads in the hillside (two higardi brigands once did this, it looked hilarious - I tried to get a screenshoot, but accidentally overwrote it).

Thanks in advance for any help again, and HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYBODY!

[ 01-02-2004, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: seclists ]