The unchecked wave of immigration into the United States

[The Hierophant]

Magik and Timber Loftis- I think you definately have a point in the sense of the unnatural nature of global socialism. However I am aware that alot of the indoctrinist education I received as a young child (during the eighties) centred around the promotion of 'survival of the fittest' ideals. Ambition was word for word encouraged as 'the only way to move foward', which is all well and good, no major dillemma. But, this education had quite an impact on the communal psyche of my generation, one whose real ramifications will only come to the fore when we become the 'generation in charge' so to speak. What my point essentially was is that the measure of success has been personified in the amount of capital one can generate/accumulate, which need not be so. Competitive 'survival of the fittest' ideology is a predominantly Greek thing (handed down to our society over the last 2700 years or so), not a natural , universal phenomenon. Indeed, our views of what is 'natural' and 'normal' behaviour is largely governed in and of itself by this core social belief that we have in our society (which isn't necessarily a good or bad thing). We view the natural world in terms of what correlates to how we live. I would assume that Tibetan Shaolin monks would see 'nature' alot differently.

I have flaws in my logic, I will not profess that I don't. I merely believe that as the current capitalist system we have in operation runs into increasing degrees of difficulty over the next few decades a change of social ideology will be required in order to reshape the way that humans make their living in the world.

[Animal]

Originally posted by Lord of Alcohol: Can a nation not say ENOUGH without being berated? Just a thought

Unfortunately I fear the nation will turn upon itself. With the mixture of cultures and ethnic backgrounds in North America, I think turning away people would end up in racial riots, humanitarin (sp?) groups with pitchforks and torches, and complete civil unrest.
Here's a thought though: LEGAL immigration, great! But, you commit one offense and bye bye, you go home! You live in America, you live as an American. You live in Canada, you live as a Canadian. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and religous faith, but no more "China Town," or "Little India," etc...

I think you guys get my point. You abide by the laws, rules and regulations of the country you live in. No exceptions. If you don't want to, then you go back where you came from. You commit a federal offense, ie: murder, rape, drug dealing, we'll even pay for the plane back, but we're not gonna land, and you're not gonna have a 'chute.

[flibulzbuth]

In yet another blow to people here in North Carolina Bank of America (one of the worst yet biggest banks in the US) is going to outsource all its computer programming to......India. The people who are to be laid off are being told to train their replacements before they lose jobs. They are required to sign two forms-a non-disclosure statemant about telling the media, and an agreement to train the replacements. Not signing or telling the media will result in firing and not getting severance pay. This was in the local paper a couple weeks ago. A group talked to the media anyway although they asked to remain anonymous. Besides the security implications of one the major banks in the US computer assets in another country it just goes to show what a large corporation will do to screw their own country in order to save money. Perhaps these couple thousand employees can pick up "service jobs" like delivering pizza, who knows?

Hopping late in the debate with an old quote...

I think you just nailed the real culprit in the illegal workers problem: the employers.
I've worked a few months in the construction business in Canada and i can tell you there is not a single illegal worker because it is heavily controlled by state and union laws. To work in construction you must have at the very least a safety permit, a qualification paper and be able to fit in the union standards (for good or worst... for example, it's tough for workers from other provinces to find work here in Quebec). And nobody who hasn't the right to work here will be able to get these papers, so there no risk of having to compete with immigrants working for .50$ an hour, 18 hours a day.

That's true for every unionized type of work i can think of, and all the illegal workers are confined to jobs not covered by legislation (dishwashers, fruitpickers and the textile industry, mostly).

Unions are far from perfect, but in some situations they are necessary. Will the State Governor will listen to the working people or the rich bastards who finances his campain (and hire illegal workers). If illegal immigrants don't have decent chances to find a job, they have no reasons to try to cross the border. And if they get their legal status, then they have no reasons to accept to work for .50$ an hour, so they are no longer unfair competition.

The real problem is the greedy-as-hell bastards who write the paychecks.

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Still what greater symbol of America than the Statue of Liberty is there? Must have been put there for a reason.

Yes they were, but it was a different age and times dochange, that is a universal constant. Would that things could have remaind like those days, except for women, blacks and many others would have to suffer for that to be the case. Things change, and some things that are bad are left behind and some things that are good can no longer continue.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Magik and Timber Loftis- I think you definately have a point in the sense of the unnatural nature of global socialism. However I am aware that alot of the indoctrinist education I received as a young child (during the eighties) centred around the promotion of 'survival of the fittest' ideals. Ambition was word for word encouraged as 'the only way to move foward', which is all well and good, no major dillemma. But, this education had quite an impact on the communal psyche of my generation, one whose real ramifications will only come to the fore when we become the 'generation in charge' so to speak. What my point essentially was is that the measure of success has been personified in the amount of capital one can generate/accumulate, which need not be so. Competitive 'survival of the fittest' ideology is a predominantly Greek thing (handed down to our society over the last 2700 years or so), not a natural , universal phenomenon. Indeed, our views of what is 'natural' and 'normal' behaviour is largely governed in and of itself by this core social belief that we have in our society (which isn't necessarily a good or bad thing). We view the natural world in terms of what correlates to how we live. I would assume that Tibetan Shaolin monks would see 'nature' alot differently. I am NOT tryingto belittle your comment or you or your philosophy with my next statement but I have to make it. People who use phrases like "communal psyche" really make my head hurt. I see what you are saying, but it appears to me just from your phraseology there that you may have invested too much in analyzing the education you received. However, not knowing anything about what you experienced I cannot know. I do realize that In my own experience the schools did not teach us about these kinds of issues. We had reading, writing, mathematics, History and economics classes but no social engineering or social awareness or any of what I call the "touchy feely" classes that have replaced a lot of what I learned. I guess education is one of the biggest changes in this country from my time to yours. I have flaws in my logic, I will not profess that I don't. I merely believe that as the current capitalist system we have in operation runs into increasing degrees of difficulty over the next few decades a change of social ideology will be required in order to reshape the way that humans make their living in the world.

Well the coming decades will be your generations to mold, and work out, hope you all succeed where you preceive that we have failed, and I wish you luck [img]smile.gif[/img] it ought to at least be interesting

[ 11-05-2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by MagiK: Well the coming decades will be your generations to mold, and work out, hope you all succeed where you preceive that we have failed, and I wish you luck [img]smile.gif[/img] it ought to at least be interesting

*salutes* We'll try our best sir! [img]smile.gif[/img]

ps: Yeah I think 'communal psyche' is a silly term too. It just popped out subconsciously. Guess it's just a subliminal part of my communal psych....uhhh, I mean, I guess I should pay more attention to what I write.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: *salutes* We'll try our best sir! [img]smile.gif[/img] ps: Yeah I think 'communal psyche' is a silly term too. It just popped out subconsciously. Guess it's just a subliminal part of my communal psych....uhhh, I mean, I guess I should pay more attention to what I write.

LoL

[Iron_Ranger]

Well I just remembered about this post last night, and I havent read every single thing.

But I get the feeling that people are confusing immigration and illegal immigration. I have aboustley nothing against legal immigration, I (and anyone in America) would be a HUGE hypocrite if they said they were against it.

I dont think many people are agaisnt legal immigration, I encorage it. Sign the papers, work hard, dont cause any trouble. Those are the rules for everyone.

If you dont follow those rules, then your more than likley not getting everything America has to offer anyway.

Just my two cents.

[Lord of Alcohol]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: Well I just remembered about this post last night, and I havent read every single thing. But I get the feeling that people are confusing immigration and illegal immigration. I have aboustley nothing against legal immigration, I (and anyone in America) would be a HUGE hypocrite if they said they were against it. I dont think many people are agaisnt legal immigration, I encorage it. Sign the papers, work hard, dont cause any trouble. Those are the rules for everyone. If you dont follow those rules, then your more than likley not getting everything America has to offer anyway. Just my two cents.

Wait until they take your job. Then see how you like it. Its time to change the rules.

[MILAMBER]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by MILAMBER: Damn, I wish I could have gotten in on this thread from the beginning. You should see things in Southern California. It is amazing how many immigrants are coming up here! In the Orange County School District (a predominantly afluent and educated area), they project that 56% of the students will be hispanic within the next 5 years. Whites are becoming the minority out here. We really need to rethink government policy on immigration. As of now, if immigrants are caught we just cart them back to the border and tell them not to try again. This might sound cruel, but I think we need to start shooting them. If they have to risk their lives I'm sure they will be much more cautious before attempting running the border. I wish them all well trying to get across legally, but most of them come across, marry someone who's been here, plops out a kid and suddenly they're citizens who are collecting welfare and ruining our health care system. Don't take me wrong, it's not that I don't like hispanics, I just don't like illegal immigrants hurting our economy and costing Americans jobs. American corporations already send enough business down to Mexico, so we don't need to start bringing Mexico up to America.

Actually I believe that they are already risking their lives. Many die in the desert, or on I-5 when they make their break to the North, I used to live in Imperial Beach, I used to see them running the highway and thru back yeards every morning. Shooting them isn't an option, however allowing every illegal child into school if they can reach one is also insane, not to mention allowing illegals access to tax payer paid medical treatment, and allowing them to obtain legal drivers license is also nuts. CA. Really needs to come up with a decent way to handle migrant workers. [/QUOTE]People do die in the desert, but more often than not they make it through. A lady that I work with has a brother that is an illegal immigrant and he goes down to Mexico every year to bring money to his family, then he illegaly crosses the border to get back here. He has done this for YEARS.

I saw a thing on the news the other day about some orgainzation of Americans who are actually setting up aid stations in the desert to help people who are crossing the border. I thought this was reciculous.

While I don't wish death to illegal immigrants, and I don't like people dying in general,we need to have a strict, established, known punishment for those who try to break that particular law.

Right now, if you get caught running the border, they'll drive you back to Mexico at the taxpayer's expense and that's that. There is no punishment whatsoever. If it was known and understood that if you try and illegal cross the border you would be shot, or killed on sight- I don't think nearly as many people would make the attempt. It would be tantamount to them deciding to jump off a cliff. They wouldn't do it. It just needs to be known that it's not the U.S. that's executing them. By their act of illegal immigration, they take their life in their own hands and sentence themselves.

Is crossing a man made line on a map an offense worthy of the death penalty? No. I don't believe it is. But if there is an action that has an known, established consequence of death (i.e. jumping off of a cliff)then they are the ones who are deciding that the death penalty is a fit consequence for their actions and not us.

The bottom line is that it needs to stop and what we are doing right now isn't working.