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Old 01-11-2002, 06:49 AM   #1
Zbyszek
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20 years ago socialists won election in Chile. Country was in state of anarchy, labour unions were protesting, their members demolishing cities, economy has fallen down. Gen. Pinochet had to kill people but army restored order. Now Chile has one of better economy in south America - what cost - so highly priced freedom. Freedom to destroy own country.
Argentina now - economy has fallen down, politics and labor unions are completely corrupted. Liberal government has fallen, populistic Peronists are back. Will any general or colonel decide to take resposibility for country? Blood can not be avoided, but now people are dying in protests anyway, millions are without work, also dying from poverty. Will army take responsibility? Protest and ostracism of all democratic world so attached to freedom, will they risk that in 20 years will be prosecuted for killing people?
Or will they sit and wait, wait for miracle, that corrupted politicians and unions will work for common goal - healthy Argentina, that people will stop to protest and will trust their leaders?

Two other examples: Peru and Columbia. One harder and one democratic approach to the economical and social problems in America.
Peru - war with maoist terrorism, Columbia - talks. Peru is almost free of terrorism, economy is not collapsing. Columbia - leftist hold big part of country (btw supported partially by Venezuela). They kill priest and not supporting them people (and rightist partisans eraze villages supporting leftists). A year or two ago they tried to take capital and maybe whole country, but US gov. help stopped that. Leftist have to pay for weapon and ammo - so they produce drugs. Government (supported by Americans ) and army dont want take hard decisions - it would be inpopular. Americans dont want hard fights because it would be inpopular - they dont want to support unpopular decisions. This is how ends then people dont want to take responsibility, when are afraid what others will say.

Argentina needs its own Pinochet, Columbia needs peace. But talks and wishes dont mean much, good results can be obtained by unpopular actions.
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Old 01-11-2002, 06:09 PM   #2
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ok, being argentinian Im not even going to bother to answer to this fascist crap of an argument because my post would be probably so insulting that I would get banned.
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Old 01-11-2002, 10:57 PM   #3
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I agree with you, norompanlasolas. I really don't know anything about what caused the current problems in Argentina, but I do know that it's not the fault of "freedom" and thier problems will not be solved by having a military coup.

I'm thinking (and norompanlasolas, please correct me if I'm mistaken) that perhaps the problem was caused by the government taking too many loans from the world bank to prop up the Argentinian economy to prevent a mild recession and now the chickens have come home to roost and the country is now in a full blown depression.
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Old 01-12-2002, 06:18 AM   #4
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quote:
Originally posted by Magness:
I agree with you, norompanlasolas. I really don't know anything about what caused the current problems in Argentina, but I do know that it's not the fault of "freedom" and thier problems will not be solved by having a military coup.

I'm thinking (and norompanlasolas, please correct me if I'm mistaken) that perhaps the problem was caused by the government taking too many loans from the world bank to prop up the Argentinian economy to prevent a mild recession and now the chickens have come home to roost and the country is now in a full blown depression.



yep, you may be right magness. that is one of the reasons, maybe not the only one since the problem is very complex, but its true that we have taken loans that we now just cant afford. simple as that.

but, one quick note. when the military overthrew the government in 1976 the foreign debt was around 5.000 billion dollars. in 1982, when they left it was 75.000 or so billion dollars. not only did they murderded thousands of innocent people, but they also bankrupted argentina. that money went to the pockets of the corrupted powerful (big local enterprises, multinationals, landlors, military chiefs, clergy, etc).
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Old 01-12-2002, 10:41 AM   #5
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I am not Argentinian and I can understand your point of view - military can be corrupted as well as politicians. I dont remember exactly when army gave back power, probably after war with England,so it is like after 15 years the loan has grow to 200 billions!
I know that fascism is not really popular but I prefer fascism than populism.

People in Chile live better now than 20 years ago. Big part of Columbia is ruled by partisans producing drugs to finance their war.
Can you propose a solution for Columbia? Do you believe that populistic politicians and labor unions can improve country economy? I can tell you that in Poland populistic government and labor unions destroyed economy. After new election another labor unions started to rule and they will not ease social taxes because they dont want to loose popularity, they put their people everywhere because they know they have only 4 years and they want to get money.
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