Questions about HOW and Trials of Luremaster

[Relic]

Hey everyone!

I'm replaying IWD and this time I have both expansions. My party is roughly 9-11 in level and i just started HOW, but im finding it insanely hard (the barrow dens part). Am I too low-level to do it? Should I finish IWD first? I did this once before but for some reason it didnt export my party leader (just everyone else), so i decided to give up. When can I start Trials of the Luremaster? Can I finish that one and go back to finish HOW/IWD?

Thanks in advance!

-Relic

[ZFR]

Hi there!

Your party is okay level-wise. The burrows are the most difficult part of HoW and everyone finds it difficult. After that it will get easier. If you post who is in your party I'm sure many people will give you good hints on how to pass it.

You can start Trials of the Luremaster anytime (in the Lonelywood Inn) but once you go to Sea ** ****** *** you will not be able to go back and start the ToTL areas. So it's best to start the ToTL just before going to the Sea. Once you finish your ToTL areas you go back to continue HoW and IWD.

[Relic]

Thanks so much ZFR!

What confused me is that in the beginning of IWD2 you talk to a woman who tells you the basic story of IWD1. She ends the story with something about the adventurers following the halfling off to a castle and them never been heard from again. Since I had played thru normal IWD1 (without the expansions) I was under the impression that you were supposed to got IWD->HOW->Trials...

My party is:

level 9 dwarf fighter (with -7 ac)

level 9 elf ranger (with -5 ac, good archer, backup fighter)

level 10ish human cleric

level 9-11 (cant remember) halfling thief (who I should have gone fighter/halfing... he trys to hit the ground and misses... he's that inaccurate with weapons.)

level 11-12 half-elf druid (who is really starting to become powerful)

level 11ish elf wizard (my AoE guy)


I think the party is nearly perfectly balanced for IWD. They've done well so far (the theif being the only "weakest link"), but I find that my fighters cant go toe-to-toe with the drowned dead. Also none of them seem to be able to save against the widows' hopelessness attack (i even tried casting emotion: hope on a fighter but it didnt last long enough to really be effective).

Any recommendations on killing drowned dead from afar? My ranger is deadly with the bow, but I cant seem to get roots or web to hold the undead in place. My dwarf had a ton of hp, but he cant survive by holding 3-4 drowned dead's attention while my ranger picks 'em off. Even my wizards spells seem innafective as a lot of powerful spells like fireball and cloudkill do next to no dmg against them. My theif cant hit them (no surprize really) and my druid certainly cant melee them (I have her set up as more of a support-healer/caster). Am I missing an obvious way to kill them? I tried using turn undead but my cleric cant reliably turn them.

Thanks again!

-Relic

[Aerich]

Psst - I forget what level a druid has to be before it gets the elemental shapechange to a water elemental, but druid water elementals (shapechange only, I believe, not summoned) are heavily resistant to slashing damage.

And the spell Chaotic Commands protects from the Wailing Virgins' Hopelessness.

[ 01-30-2005, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

[NobleNick]

Relic,

Welcome to the IWD forum!

(slight SPOILERS follow)

You have a well balanced party. (Yeah, I would second your opinion on trading in the Thief for a Fighter/Thief. And it is still EARLY in the overall game: I'd trade him in now.)

However, the party's experience level I would characterize only as "barely adequate" for anyone not a masochist. CLVL 11 to 13 breathes a lot easier than 9-11. To maximize your party's expo going into each of the expansions, I would do the complete game as follows:

IWD (to just before going up stairs guarded by idol in LDD)
HoW (to just before accepting trip to Sea __ ______ ___)
TotLM (to end)
Return to, and finish HoW
Return to, and finish IWD

And don't be afraid to camp along the way and pick up more expo.

Now, if you want to continue with your light-expo party in HoW, there are several things you can do (in addition to some excellent advice already given for the Wailing Virgins -- what I think you meant by "widows").

First, (and I'm sure you know this by now) scout out new territory with a stealthed/invisible character, and move into new territory very slowly.

O.K., for the virgins: These gals are NASTY, so throw EVERYTHING you have at them FIRST. One tactic I used was to throw invisibility on four of my best warriors, buff them against the mind attack, surround the witch, er, I mean virgin, start the fight by hacking on her, and have her dead before the second round ends. Even then, a few guys would often go into dream land before she went down. I forget if Silence works on the virgins.

Next, the Drowned Dead: These guys move a bit more slowly than most attackers, and IIRC are susceptable to Web/Entangle, so use that to your advantage. Retreat, take out the supporting monsters, then dance around and avoid these guys while whittling them down with ranged fire. (I assume you have the basics right, like focusing fire on one monster at a time until it goes down, then moving all fire to the next.) Yes, it is slow, and uses lots of ammo, but it is better than dying. If you want to hurry up the process, you MIGHT be able to surround ONE of them with AT LEAST 3 warriors and hack away; but this is very hard on HP; and since you don't have access to the Bard's War Chant, I'd suggest sticking to ranged attack.

Finally, you might want to test out your Cleric's Turn Undead skills. My party was beefy enough that I didn't need to resort to this, so I don't know how readily DD are Turned; but it is worth a try. Leveling your Cleric before B.I., to strengthen his Turn Undead skill, is one of the best reasons to wait as long as possible before entering HoW from IWD.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 01-31-2005, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Relic]

Thanks so much to all of you for your great responses. I will certainly take everyone's advice to heart. I kind of feared that my party was too low in level. I have previously (a few years back) played through BG2, regular IWD1, most of IWD2, and about half of BG1, and I must say that the Barrow Dens part in IWD:HOW is just about the hardest sitation I've face in any of these games. Part of me wondered if that was due to my party's level range, but I figured IWD automatically adjusted the monster types based on what your current experience level was (like they did in the Baldur's Gate games)... I guess not! [img]smile.gif[/img]

If I drop my rogue now and restart, what is the best way to level him up quickly? Sleep in the Barrows for the extra-spawn monsters? To be honest, I've never purposely tried to seek out experience in any of these Infinity Engine games... I've always just gained all the experience I needed playing through the storyline. Also, would you recommend going human rogue, then dualing over to fighter once his traps/unlock/stealth skills are around 100, or should I go for a half-elf fighter/theif multiclass? Believe it or not, I have never created a genuine multi-class character in a 2E game (I used a few in BG2, for instance Jahiera and Aerie, but I never paid much attention to how they should be built). What I would like is a rogue that can take care of any traps/locks the party finds, as well as one that can be an effective archer and decent melee'r (I'm using the 3E sneak attack option so stealth is really only important for scouting).

I will definately memorize chaotic commands. I just thought of something... would improved invisibility keep the virgins (sorry, for some reason I called them 'widows') from being about to target a character to cast their spell? Also, this doesn't help me since I have no paladin, but would a paladin's anti-fear aura protect against emotion: hopelessness? (Do 2E paladins have an anti-fear aura, or am I mixing this game up with IWD2?)

From reading other posts about the barrow dens, it seems that the monsters there just constantly respawn. Maybe I should abandon my usual "clear the halls" style of playing and just work my way through killing as few as I can.

I'm not opposed to going back to the IWD storyline for a little (though I am in lower dorn's deep already), and I might consider checking out the ToL content (but I'm afriad it might be too tough at my level also).

Thanks again for your responses everyone!

-Relic

[NobleNick]

I figured IWD automatically adjusted the monster types based on what your current experience level was (like they did in the Baldur's Gate games)... I guess not! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Relic, Heh, heh, heh. Yes, your latest answer is correct.

If I drop my rogue now and restart, what is the best way to level him up quickly? Sleep in the Barrows for the extra-spawn monsters?

Ack! Whatever I did, I would not let the party sleep anywhere that they might be awakened by a Wailing Virgin. Also, strip the Thief before discarding him and give the equipment to your new character.

If your roleplay ethos allows, roll the appropriate character and then use Dalekeeper to hack in the same amount of expo that your Thief had. I don't consider this cheating. (However, if you don't mind a wee little bit of cheating...)

Another option is to roll your new character, have him be leader of a new party, then fill out the party by importing some or all of your experienced party into the new game, and just play on from there. Yeah, this is "cheating;" but what a lot of FUN!! Mowing through old nemeses like they were rag dolls was just too tempting for me. I did it several times with various parties. I consider it "camping" on the run.

O.K., If you don't want to do any of that, I'd suggest camping ABOVE ground on B.I; or return to IWD and complete some quests (see below).

Also, would you recommend going human rogue, then dualing over to fighter once his traps/unlock/stealth skills are around 100, or should I go for a half-elf fighter/theif multiclass? ...What I would like is a rogue that can take care of any traps/locks the party finds, as well as one that can be an effective archer and decent melee'r (I'm using the 3E sneak attack option so stealth is really only important for scouting).

I am fighting the urge to offer DC suggestions for other members of your party; but the Thief is one class that I would acquiesce might be better for you to MC. I have a DC F[9]/Thief[27] (or something ridiculous like that) and have often wished I'd gone to DC F[13]/T[xx] to get the extra offensive punch into the character. The problem is that it is a royal pain to not have a Thief for that long. If you DC, do Fighter first, and go to at least F[9], to get the extra HP and stackable PP. Well, O.K., you could do Thief first if you don't mind the extreme loss of HP.

...would improved invisibility keep the virgins...from being about to target a character to cast their spell? Also, this doesn't help me since I have no paladin, but would a paladin's anti-fear aura protect against emotion: hopelessness? (Do 2E paladins have an anti-fear aura, or am I mixing this game up with IWD2?)

No. I think the WV's attack is an area effect. On the Pally: I think you are thinking of IWD2. There is no anti-fear aura for a Pally in IWD, although he is personally more immune to such and has at least one skill/spell that might help others.

From reading other posts about the barrow dens, it seems that the monsters there just constantly respawn. Maybe I should abandon my usual "clear the halls" style of playing and just work my way through killing as few as I can.

I don't think they CONSTANTLY respawn; just if you sleep or leave the area. It is tough to not kill almost all of them in the course of achieving your objectives the first time through. Kill them all, for the expo. (I did!)

~

(Answer to the next question has a slight spoiler.)

~

I'm not opposed to going back to the IWD storyline for a little (though I am in lower dorn's deep already), and I might consider checking out the ToL content (but I'm afriad it might be too tough at my level also). [QB]

How far are you in LDD? There is LOTS of expo to be had here. Have you returned to any previous areas with unfinished quests since arriving at LDD? There are some quests that started in a previous area (with a total of about 400,000 XP!!!) that can only be finished with items you pick up by the time you (almost) finish LDD. Your MC F/T would make F[7]/T[8] just off of the quest expo and a fight or two (assuming you shared quest expo equally in a full party).

TotLM (a.k.a. ToL, TotL) is -WAY- above your party, now, but if you follow my suggested progression (previous post), you should do O.K. when you finally get to it.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!


[ 01-31-2005, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: NobleNick ]

[Relic]

Thanks so much NobleNick! You've reminded me just how fun it is to not only plan out and play through these games; but to talk about them too!

I won't be changing out any of my other party members, but I would love to hear your suggestions on what I should/could have DC/MC'd. ...Let me guess... fighter/druid? [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think I'm going to try out a HE fighter/theif, giving him all the gear from my ill-fated halfling thief. I don't really think I have the time to play-through the game from the beginning right now, but maybe when stuff settles down I'll have more playtime and can run through it with a total power-gamer party. I'm not a strict role-player at all when it comes to IWD style games. I rest when I need to, and try and tweak the classes/stats to the max. I dont really like the idea of using dalekeeper to change my exp though. Sounds a little too "cheat-ish," and I'd probably only end up messing up the character! [img]smile.gif[/img]

*SPOILER ALERT*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are you talking about the Severed Hand quest where you bring the small animal, vine juice and holy water to the druid in the tower? If so, I remember doing that quest the first time through, but I haven't done it yet. I guess it's back to Dorn's Deep I go!

Hey, by the way, this is sort of off-topic, but I seem to remember a way to present Larrel with his daughters journal to prove that the dwarves thought her a hero. Did I completely make this up in my head? I went back to Larrel with her diary in my inventory this game and I found that he wouldnt respond to me. Hmm.

*END OF SPOILERS*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks again for everyone's help, I forgot just how fun this game is. Can't wait to finish it and actually play all the way through IWD2 (no quitting this time [img]smile.gif[/img] ) I'm much more comfortable with 3E rules...

-Relic

[Aerich]

*Hefty Quest Spoilers*
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*
*
*
*
Yep, NN is talking about the Severed Hand quest. What you need is the barrel of pure water (near Kontik in the Frost Giant Caverns), with the cage of squirrels (buy from Nym), cage of birds (ditto), and bag of seeds (Malevon's room, iirc).

You can get XP from Larrel. However, there is a diary AND a journal. The diary is in the Severed Hand, and gives no XP. The journal is in Dorn's Deep, Hall of Heroes - in her tomb. It gives plenty of XP.

[NobleNick]

Relic,

Since you invited, I will indulge in a little party meddling (one of my favorite pastimes!), to give you ideas for next time. My goal is to make your original party more "power gamish" with as few tweaks as possible (i.e., keep the original flavor of your party. If you want to see some ideas on pure, built from the bottom up power parties, there are plenty of posts, including several in recent months by Aerich and myself.) I assume you will use the party to do the full game (IWD, HoW and TotLM).

Your current party:

1.) Dwarf Fighter
2.) Elf Ranger (good archer, backup fighter)
3.) Human Cleric
4.) Halfling Thief (who I should have gone fighter/halfing...)
5.) HE Druid (who is really starting to become powerful)
6.) Elf wizard (my AoE guy)

My suggestion:

1.) Dwarf Fighter ( *****NonAxe_EdgedWeapon, ***LongBow -OR- *****Axe, ***BluntWeapon [see discussion for character #6]. )
2.) Human good_Cleric[12]/Ranger (**Hammer, **Sling; **Flail)
3.) Human Fighter[13]/neutral_Cleric (*****Mace, ***Sling)
4.) HE Fighter/Thief (already what you were going to; **EdgedWeapon, **LongBow)
5.) HE Druid (*Scimitar, *Sling)
6.) Human Fighter[9]/Mage (AoE guy, ****EdgedWeapon, ***LongBow; -OR- *****Axe [if you don't go Axe on the Dwarf. Use Axe for your melee AND ranged weapon] and **BluntWeapon)

ALL characters have DEX maxed.
ALL characters have CON maxed.
ALL SC, MC and DC Warriors have STR maxed
"Max HP per level" option is turned ON.

Rationale: Need lots of Cleric power in HoW/TotLM. Fighter power is vital, too; so leave #1 as is; and DC #2 and #3 as Cleric/Warriors. Time the DCs so as to never be without a Cleric; and to have a high level Cleric on B.I. Going for mace with your neutral_Cleric allows use of the Giving Star. The C/R will have lots of slots for the Ranger's Druid spells. Leave #4 as per your chosen upgrade to the Thief: This gives him high HP and some offensive punch. Eliminate the only HP weak link in your party by starting out the Mage as a Fighter: With a CON = 18, she will have 126 HP at the DC!! I left the Druid alone simply because I tinkered enough elsewhere. You are right about this guy: as we travel further down the road toward powergaming, he would get MCed or (my preference) DCed with a Fighter. In the end game, this party has 4 excellent warriors plus 2 passable ones (F/M and Druid), 2 characters with access to Cleric spells, 2 with access to Druid spells and 1 with access to arcane spells.

Want to crank it up another notch? O.K., with all the humans and DCing going on around here, I'll go against my grain and MC the Druid. Boot the Dwarf Fighter(surprised?) and add a Bard. DC the F/M at F[13]. (The Bard can cover magic duties while you create a "Battle Mage.") The party would look like this:

1.) Human good_Cleric[12]/Ranger (**Hammer, **Sling; **Flail)
2.) Human Fighter[13]/neutral_Cleric (*****Mace, ***Sling)
3.) Dwarf Fighter/Thief (gets the Dwarf back into the party; **EdgedWeapon, **LongBow)
4.) HE Fighter/Druid (**Scimitar, **Sling, **BluntWeapon)
5.) Human Fighter[13]/Illusionist (AoE guy; *****EdgedWeapon, ***long bow; -OR- *****Axe [if you go Axe, use it for your melee AND ranged weapon] and ***BluntWeapon)
6.) HE Bard (fills in as mage in early to mid game; EdgedWeapon, Crossbow)

Rationale: In the end game, this party has 5 excellent warriors (any of whom can melee, range, and tank) plus one O.K. ranged warrior (Bard), 2 characters with access to Cleric spells, 2 with access to Druid spells and 2 with access to arcane spells. The Bard's War Chant will armor plate and heal your party: virtually eliminating the need for the Clerics to carry healing spells (allowing them to tank up on more buffing/combat spells). The Bard's HP will be the weak link in the party's HP, but give her Stoneskin, an item that Blurs, and Mirror Image, and she'll do great.

Hope you enjoyed this.

--------------------
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!