09-25-2001, 01:12 AM | #121 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
Posts: 9,246
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In any case Dio's post was not being read by much of New York. Only four on this forum are even remotely close to ground zero, and two of them haven't posted in this thread. So who were you referring to? ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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09-25-2001, 01:22 AM | #122 | |
Iron Throne Cult
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Hi Liliara ------------------ Goddess and Sorceress of the HADB, and her sidekick Pink |
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09-25-2001, 06:02 AM | #123 | ||
Red Wizard of Thay
Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 51
Posts: 889
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Just to put things into perspective, READ THIS! ------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" |
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09-25-2001, 06:51 AM | #124 |
Red Wizard of Thay
Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 51
Posts: 889
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I have a question. This is mostly aimed at Dio and Lady F. Why are you both instantly presuming the worst? Not a single shot has been fired yet. Not a single bomb/missle/warplane has been invoked. Yes, there are US Ships being sent to the Gulf, and Yes, the US Military is preparing. Does this automatically equate with indiscriminate bombing and 'John Wayne mentality'? No, of course not, and to think otherwise is plain silly.
First of all, we have the most sophisticated attack systems in the world, and can quite cheerfully place bombs and missles anywhere we want. Second, we have the most highly trained army on the planet, and they too can be, and are selective about their targets. You keep assuming that the US is going to take a shotgun approach. Before you judge Bush, at least give the man a chance to act. I mean, so far he has acted in an immenantly reasonable fashion. Denouncing the despicable acts of the terrorists, calling for world unity, trying his utmost to heal wounds already inflicted with the Muslim world, building bridges, etc. I live in a state peopled heavily by gun-toting, right-wing, kill-em-all-and-let-God-sort-em-out rednecks. And even here, the primary focus seems to be the healing of our wounds, and bringing these people to justice. JUSTICE! Not revenge! However, if justice means a bullet in the brainstem of every member of the Taliban, and Osama Bin Ladin...so be it. I wont shed a single tear. If a ground based military assualt is required to root these people out(and I would also consider this extremely unfortunate), and innocents die in the process, I will weep for them just as I did for those lost in America. But I wont ask that American soldiers shirk from the responsibility of destroying these scum either. And, as a BTW, yes, it is a war. It is in no way a conventional war, but it is war nonetheless. You are absolutely dead on about the effect of the term 'WAR' on the American psyche. And I, for one, think that it is necessary and right for Bush to use that exact term. Legal maneuvering has failed. Diplomacy has failed. Appeasement has failed. Naked force is the only option that remains. To quote..."The Sleeping Giant is Awakened". ------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" |
09-25-2001, 11:32 AM | #125 | |
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
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However, as I read it over again I found it so grossy offensive that I am now too angry to do so. You think I insult you, Yorick? I have never treated you with less than respect (certainly not deliberately), even when seriously annoyed with you. Even after your previous post I did my best to keep it friendly. But you seem determined to feel insulted and antagonistic, and to offer me (and Dio) insults that are clearly INTENDED as insult. (And you claim that you are not affected by anger and distress about the plane 'bombings'? ) So if you want further response from me in this thread you can whistle for it. I shall try to continue on a friendly basis with you in other threads, however, and to forget what you have said to me here. Oh, and while I'm bellyaching, my name is not Fjlotsdale, it's Fljotsdale. It has been niggling me for ages that you always spell it incorrectly! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-25-2001).] |
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09-25-2001, 11:40 AM | #126 | |
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
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Wouldn't it be nice if people read what we ACTUALLY wrote instead of what they THINK we wrote? Still - human nature, I suppose! I've been guilty of it myself! ------------------ |
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09-25-2001, 11:40 AM | #127 | |
Fzoul Chembryl
Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 49
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What scares me is that we are entering this with an attitude of "bringing to justice" and "hold accountable for actions", etc, etc. In other words, we are seeking revenge for what as happened in NYC. That's the mistake. You do not enter this kind of conflict seeking revenge. You must enter it to prevent future terrorist attacks. Again, it's sementics because the end result is the same: the death (or removal) of Bin Ladden and his followers. As far as bringing terrorist to justice, I personnaly think it's a mistake as he can be percieved as a martyr. But then again, he will also be percieved as a martyr if we just kill him. Plus, let's face it. Bin Ladden, as one man, as just proven himself to be stronger than the entire Western Civilization. He's been illuding us for over 8 years and still manages to strike and bring us down on one knee (the economic one, not the attitude). I also believe that sending US troops to the Persian Gulf again is an error. Let's face it, what boosted Bin Ladden network over the last decade? Hate for the US, not only for their involment in the Middle East, but for having military units in Saudi Arabia. No, a full blown military operation is the wrong approach to this problem if you ask me. However, it's what Americans want to see and that's what Americans will get. The proper way to deal with this is by covert operations. You deal with terrorist like you would deal with guerrilas: with guerrilla warfare. Ironically, the US where never that great at this type of battle. Don't tell anyone, just send small groups of people to take terrorist out both at home and abroad. CNN broadcasting Bin Ladden and War on Terrorism day and night doesn't help. Muslim extremist that were on the fence now might fall over to Bin Ladden's side 'cause they can now really see his true power. This whole thing as way to much publicity. I'm curius as to what Americans will do with all that military hardware in the Middle East. I might be living in the world of "if" "maybe" or "might" but I know that B-2, F-117, F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18 and AWACS can do nothing to bring Bin Ladden down. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. So, why are they there? Maybe to carpet bomb Afghanistan, maybe to prepare the ground for another Desert Storm. Who knows but just a small flashback: did carpet bombing Drezden (spelling) solve anything but to boost the morale of Germans (like V1 and V2 boosted the morals of the English). It's amazing how much history can teach us, yet, it keeps repeating itself because people don't take time to learn from it (don't worry I don't know it all) We'll know soon enough why they sent those troops and planes to the Middle East, so I'll refrain from further commenting on that issue. The last point I want to talk about is a war in Afghanistan. I have a feeling that most of the Occidental world sees them as "bad" "evil" or "supportive" of Bin Ladden and Anti-American sentiments. Granted, the Taliban have a very strong hold on the locals and are anti-Americans. But, the Gestapo and the Waffen SS also had a very strong hold on the Germans during WWII. Were all Germans bad then? No. Today, like 60 years ago, it's not all Afghans or Muslims that are bad. We should be carefull not to generalize too much and go after the wrong people. ------------------ If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I? |
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09-25-2001, 12:34 PM | #128 | |
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
Join Date: March 12, 2001
Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England
Age: 87
Posts: 2,859
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Nachtrafen, I think I speak for Dio as well as myself when I say that we shall shed no tears over bin Laden or the Taliban! No way! Don’t you even think it! As for ‘presuming the worst’ – well, there is past record to go by. And even if that was not the case, what else could anyone presume from the build-up of forces in the area? I HOPE that it is just a show of power to force the Taliban to hand over bin Laden if it is proved he was behind the plane ‘bombings’. I really hope that. But history begs to question that hope by pointing out that what USUALLY happens is the bombing of innocents. The so-called ‘smart’ weapons are not all that smart, as has been proved. And even if the ordinance was really ‘smart’, people like bin Laden and other terrorists make sure to surround themselves with civilian women and children so that they can display their bodies for the media, thus wrong-footing the West. Those innocent victims of terrorism do not deserve for us to kill them on top of what they already suffer, do they? HOW to bring terrorist to justice without harming others is a question I have no answer to, but I want it done in a way that does NOT include the death of anyone other than terrorists. Therefore, negotiation and diplomacy MUST be pushed to the limit before even thinking of force, imho. ------------------ |
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09-25-2001, 06:34 PM | #129 | |||||
Red Wizard of Thay
Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 51
Posts: 889
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There are several options, and scenarios. I think that it is rather obviously a show of force. But there are also obviously some rather complex reason behind it. Quote:
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One last thing. The ideal you are talking about...peaceful resolution, the world lending a helping hand and making all right with the Afghani, etc, is just that...a wonderful idea. Unfortunately, living in the real world tends to suck. I, for one, would rather live in your ideal. But, as we *all* live in the real world, and that is a dark and sucky place most of the time, we have to use dark and sucky means to acomplish our ends. ------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" |
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09-25-2001, 07:44 PM | #130 | |
Very Mad Bird
Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam)
Age: 52
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------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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