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Old 09-11-2008, 09:07 AM   #281
Stratos
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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Originally Posted by Cerek View Post
Surviving in freezing water longer than expected could be explained based on different factors. The physical stamina and endurance of the individual could play a part, as well as the clothing they happen to have on. This may not completely explain the person's survival, but it could provide at least parts of an alternative explanation.

I've read other accounts that would be considered miraculous as well. One was of a man who worked construction and - in a freak accident - actually shot a nail into his heart with a nail gun. The physician that treated him stated the mans extraordinary physical condition played a partial role in his survival, but that still wasn't enough to explain he surviving such a traumatic wound. His final conclusion was "this is one lucky individual".

I also read a story when I was in elementary school of a stewardess who survived falling from the sky when her plane blew up. While her survival might be considered miraculous by some, there were several factors that attributed it as well. She was towards the back of the plane away from the location of the explosion. She was knocked unconscious as the tail section fell from the sky (which prevented her from suffering panic, a heart attack or broken bones from "tensing up"). The tail section landed in a thick forest on a snow covered hillside. So the size and shape of the tail section affected her rate of descent and provided some protection to her. The trees and snow also helped "cushion" her landing. Her survival would still be unexpected in most cases, but you can see how other factors played into it. THAT is they type of alternative explanation I am talking about. The skeptic only bears the burden of providing a plausible explanation or listing reasonable mitigating factors that could also be considered.




Saying "I don't know exactly" is an acceptable answer. You've evaluated your beliefs and you really don't know what it would take to convince you they may be wrong. It's no different for a believer. I'm not sure exactly what evidence I could see that would be irrefutable and convince me to change my mind. I will say that several arguments I've seen over the years have forced me to RE-evaluate my beliefs and look much deeper into WHY I believe them than I have before. I've still not found an argument that is completely convincing, but I've seen some that made me rethink what I thought before.



But that is the same culpability you are placing on God. You are saying there should be no chance for doubt if God is perfect, but we are told we have a choice to believe what God tells and shows us or not to believe it.

There are some people who still believe the Earth is flat. When shown pictures from satellites disproving their belief, they say "I can see how an untrained eye would be fooled by that." Now,this example is normally given as an analogy for believers refusing to accept scientific evidence that contradicts a belief in God. But we've seen non-believers display that same refusal to consider evidence contrary to their belief system.

So the culpability lies somewhere in the middle, rather than wholly on one party.
Fair enough.
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:09 AM   #282
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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Actually, many Christians (including Kay Arthur) believe that behind every deity/idol, is a demon.

I have not done any research on it, but I can certainly see the relation.
Well, in Christianity there is only one god, so the others must be non-existent or something else.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:31 PM   #283
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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Only if you include "doesn't happen very often" in your definition of miracle.
I think most people would indeed include that. No matter how amazing something is, if we see it everyday we're not very likely to consider it miraculous. The earth having the perfect combination of atmosphere, sunlight, darkness, water, and land seems a good example to me. The chances of that occuring are (punnily) astronomical! But we don't generally consider that miraculous or astounding, as we've walked this earth since the beginning of our lives.
So, in short, I guess i disagree with you: the rarity of "miracles" would seem to be one of the components that makes them so miraculous. Just my opinion on the matter, though.
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:49 PM   #284
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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Originally Posted by Dron_Cah View Post
I think most people would indeed include that. No matter how amazing something is, if we see it everyday we're not very likely to consider it miraculous. The earth having the perfect combination of atmosphere, sunlight, darkness, water, and land seems a good example to me. The chances of that occuring are (punnily) astronomical! But we don't generally consider that miraculous or astounding, as we've walked this earth since the beginning of our lives.
So, in short, I guess i disagree with you: the rarity of "miracles" would seem to be one of the components that makes them so miraculous. Just my opinion on the matter, though.
Hey, Gold Dragon, knows what he's talking about: of course..
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:53 PM   #285
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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I think most people would indeed include that. No matter how amazing something is, if we see it everyday we're not very likely to consider it miraculous. The earth having the perfect combination of atmosphere, sunlight, darkness, water, and land seems a good example to me. The chances of that occuring are (punnily) astronomical! But we don't generally consider that miraculous or astounding, as we've walked this earth since the beginning of our lives.
So, in short, I guess i disagree with you: the rarity of "miracles" would seem to be one of the components that makes them so miraculous. Just my opinion on the matter, though.
If the conditions were different, life either wouldn't be here or have a different form. I don't think you could conclude that the Earth was designed for us because it fits so well, when life could simply evolve to fit the Earths environment. Which in turn changed the environment, and so on.

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. . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!
- Douglas Adams
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:55 PM   #286
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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I think most people would indeed include that. No matter how amazing something is, if we see it everyday we're not very likely to consider it miraculous. The earth having the perfect combination of atmosphere, sunlight, darkness, water, and land seems a good example to me. The chances of that occuring are (punnily) astronomical! But we don't generally consider that miraculous or astounding, as we've walked this earth since the beginning of our lives.
So, in short, I guess i disagree with you: the rarity of "miracles" would seem to be one of the components that makes them so miraculous. Just my opinion on the matter, though.
What else would be included other than rarity?
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:05 PM   #287
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

First, I'm not trying to argue that the Earth fits so well that it must have been made for us. I was simply using that as an example. I'm trying to say that the world we live on is an amazing place, but we don't generally think of it in that manner because we see it every day. An every day miracle, if you will. (Though you probably wont. :p)

I would say a miracle would have to be something inexplicable. That does seem to be the basis of miracles as a definition.
I am not, however, saying that a miracle must happen infrequently, by definition. I am merely saying that if it happened everyday people would become accustomed to it and would not be likely to consider it a profound happening. The extraordinary would become ordinary. Know what I'm saying?
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:08 PM   #288
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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First, I'm not trying to argue that the Earth fits so well that it must have been made for us. I was simply using that as an example. I'm trying to say that the world we live on is an amazing place, but we don't generally think of it in that manner because we see it every day. An every day miracle, if you will. (Though you probably wont. :p)

I would say a miracle would have to be something inexplicable. That does seem to be the basis of miracles as a definition.
I am not, however, saying that a miracle must happen infrequently, by definition. I am merely saying that if it happened everyday people would become accustomed to it and would not be likely to consider it a profound happening. The extraordinary would become ordinary. Know what I'm saying?
Exactly right!
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:15 PM   #289
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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I would say a miracle would have to be something inexplicable.That does seem to be the basis of miracles as a definition.
Problem is that the inexpicable sometimes becomes "expicable".

Quote:
I am not, however, saying that a miracle must happen infrequently, by definition. I am merely saying that if it happened everyday people would become accustomed to it and would not be likely to consider it a profound happening. The extraordinary would become ordinary. Know what I'm saying?
You mean like the miracles in Black and White? Use your godly powers too much and your followers will lose interest in it. "Woo!" becomes "Meh!".

Manna from the sky is only impressive the first couple of days.
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:22 PM   #290
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

True, sometimes the inexplicable can be explained. However, that shouldn't really hurt the faith of a person with a solid foundation. To explain a miracle that was formerly inexplicable doesn't necessarily discredit the existence of a higher being. One would be forced to admit that if the higher being indeed created the universe, including all the rules that govern it, that being would be well capable of accomplishing something within the rules for the universe of the being's creation.
And I've never played Black and White, but from the sounds of your description, that pretty much covers it, yeah.
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