Yorick? - Page 18

Fljotsdale · 08-10-2001, 08:52 AM

Jus' bootin' it back to page one for anyone still interested. I'll let it drop out if everyone has had enough of it.
F.

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Diogenes Of Pumpkintown · 08-10-2001, 04:11 PM

Just wanted to jump in to say "Wow!"

I am very impressed with the many thoughtful posts in this thread. On the original topic itself, I must say that I tend to share Fljotsdale's point of view, greatly admire her obviously thorough knowledge of the Biblical text itself, and find her arguments and reasoning most persuasive as to what the Bible itself does or does not say regarding the concept of the Trinity. (Of course whether one should derive one's view of god only from the Bible or also from other sources is a separate issue, as Yorick and others have said).

That being the case, and perhaps this issue being argued into the ground already, I should like to shift gears a bit, if others care to join in.

Regarding Jesus' reputation of being a kind, gentle soul, I would like to know what some of you Biblical scholars think on this issue.

I have long felt that an objective reading of Books in the Bible like John (approached without the preconceived idea that Jesus was meek, loving, and gentle) could very well lead to a different conclusion. Not to offend anybody here (hopefully) and putting the matter as bluntly as I can, it seems to me that Jesus can really come across as something of a mean asshole in the Bible. Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 08-10-2001).]

Fljotsdale · 08-10-2001, 04:26 PM

You are correct in a way, Diogenes. The gospels show Jesus as a very firm and committed individual. He was in no way the wishy-washy figure many old paintings portrayed him to be. After all, he took a whip to the money-changers in the temple, he turned his back on Peter when Peter told Jesus 'be kind to yourself, Lord' and told Peter he was 'satan'. He forcefully exposed the hypocrisy of religious leaders, refused to speak out before Pilate, and generally lambasted people for not obeying god, dismissed his mother with 'who are you, woman?' etc,.
On the other hand, he was kind and patient to 'sinners' who repented, and to his disciples. He spent 3 years walking the land preaching and teaching, healing, and at times feeding the populace, regardless of his own physical tiredness or hunger (or that of his disciples).

But you wouldn't want a weak leader, would you?

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Cloudbringer · 08-15-2001, 12:08 AM

HAHAHA.. Oh Dio! My priest would LOVE you.. LOL He routinely reminds us that the 'meek, mild milksop' image is a myth.. that Jesus lived in his time as a man and a member of the society and very much a strong individual who taught us about patience, love and humility but never told us it was ok to ignore the wrongs.. the moneychangers in the temples, if you will.

Rest easy, my friend... I am not in the slightest offended! In fact I'm impressed at the insight you show!

------------------

Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

Fljotsdale · 08-15-2001, 09:31 AM

Sounds like that priest of yours is above average quality for a priest, Cloudbringer, lol!

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Cloudbringer · 08-16-2001, 04:44 PM

Hey F! I like him quite well, actually. In fact, I was on the committee that chose him for the church when our last one retired soon after I joined.

Cloudy

------------------

Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 08-16-2001).]

Fljotsdale · 08-16-2001, 08:19 PM

Well done you!

I like a person with a bit of fire in the belly!

Pity I'll never meet him - we could have nice cosy debates!

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John D Harris · 08-16-2001, 08:33 PM

Miss Fljostdale and Diogenes (not sure if miss or mr.)
Here we go again

I agree that Jesus was strong and at times what people now would define as narrow minded, He was also kind, gentle, and meek. In no way are kind, gentle, and meek to be confused with whimmpy or wishy-washy. Meekness (sp?) is knowing you are the top of the ladder, but not lording over others. Kindness is knowing that you could hurt others but not doing it. Gentlenees is being capitable of cruelity (sp?) but refusing to do so. As the old southern gospel song says "He could have called ten thousand Angels to distroy the world and set Him free, but He died alone for you and me" Now that is strength, it always takes strength to do what is right, any whimp can do what is wrong.

------------------

"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

Fljotsdale · 08-17-2001, 06:06 AM

I don't disagree with a word of that, John D!
Hey?! What's happening to me? That is two people I have agreed with who hold opposite views to mine! (*thinks* 'Must be more careful....')

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Cloudbringer · 09-16-2001, 02:44 AM

Nice post, John! I missed it earlier! Well worded!

Cloudy

------------------

Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

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08-10-2001, 08:52 AM	#171
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	Jus' bootin' it back to page one for anyone still interested. I'll let it drop out if everyone has had enough of it. F. ------------------

08-10-2001, 04:11 PM	#172
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown Banned User Join Date: August 9, 2001 Location: ... Posts: 694	Just wanted to jump in to say "Wow!" I am very impressed with the many thoughtful posts in this thread. On the original topic itself, I must say that I tend to share Fljotsdale's point of view, greatly admire her obviously thorough knowledge of the Biblical text itself, and find her arguments and reasoning most persuasive as to what the Bible itself does or does not say regarding the concept of the Trinity. (Of course whether one should derive one's view of god only from the Bible or also from other sources is a separate issue, as Yorick and others have said). That being the case, and perhaps this issue being argued into the ground already, I should like to shift gears a bit, if others care to join in. Regarding Jesus' reputation of being a kind, gentle soul, I would like to know what some of you Biblical scholars think on this issue. I have long felt that an objective reading of Books in the Bible like John (approached without the preconceived idea that Jesus was meek, loving, and gentle) could very well lead to a different conclusion. Not to offend anybody here (hopefully) and putting the matter as bluntly as I can, it seems to me that Jesus can really come across as something of a mean asshole in the Bible. Thoughts? [This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 08-10-2001).]

08-10-2001, 04:26 PM	#173
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	You are correct in a way, Diogenes. The gospels show Jesus as a very firm and committed individual. He was in no way the wishy-washy figure many old paintings portrayed him to be. After all, he took a whip to the money-changers in the temple, he turned his back on Peter when Peter told Jesus 'be kind to yourself, Lord' and told Peter he was 'satan'. He forcefully exposed the hypocrisy of religious leaders, refused to speak out before Pilate, and generally lambasted people for not obeying god, dismissed his mother with 'who are you, woman?' etc,. On the other hand, he was kind and patient to 'sinners' who repented, and to his disciples. He spent 3 years walking the land preaching and teaching, healing, and at times feeding the populace, regardless of his own physical tiredness or hunger (or that of his disciples). But you wouldn't want a weak leader, would you? ------------------

08-15-2001, 12:08 AM	#174
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	HAHAHA.. Oh Dio! My priest would LOVE you.. LOL He routinely reminds us that the 'meek, mild milksop' image is a myth.. that Jesus lived in his time as a man and a member of the society and very much a strong individual who taught us about patience, love and humility but never told us it was ok to ignore the wrongs.. the moneychangers in the temples, if you will. Rest easy, my friend... I am not in the slightest offended! In fact I'm impressed at the insight you show! ------------------ Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..."

08-15-2001, 09:31 AM	#175
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	Sounds like that priest of yours is above average quality for a priest, Cloudbringer, lol! ------------------

08-16-2001, 04:44 PM	#176
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	Hey F! I like him quite well, actually. In fact, I was on the committee that chose him for the church when our last one retired soon after I joined. Cloudy ------------------ Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." [This message has been edited by Cloudbringer (edited 08-16-2001).]

08-16-2001, 08:19 PM	#177
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	Well done you! I like a person with a bit of fire in the belly! Pity I'll never meet him - we could have nice cosy debates! ------------------

08-16-2001, 08:33 PM	#178
John D Harris Ninja Storm Shadow Join Date: March 27, 2001 Location: Northport,Alabama, USA Age: 62 Posts: 3,577	Miss Fljostdale and Diogenes (not sure if miss or mr.) Here we go again I agree that Jesus was strong and at times what people now would define as narrow minded, He was also kind, gentle, and meek. In no way are kind, gentle, and meek to be confused with whimmpy or wishy-washy. Meekness (sp?) is knowing you are the top of the ladder, but not lording over others. Kindness is knowing that you could hurt others but not doing it. Gentlenees is being capitable of cruelity (sp?) but refusing to do so. As the old southern gospel song says "He could have called ten thousand Angels to distroy the world and set Him free, but He died alone for you and me" Now that is strength, it always takes strength to do what is right, any whimp can do what is wrong. ------------------ "the memories of a man in his old age, are deeds of a man in his prime"

08-17-2001, 06:06 AM	#179
Fljotsdale Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Birmingham, West Mid\'s, England Age: 87 Posts: 2,859	I don't disagree with a word of that, John D! Hey?! What's happening to me? That is two people I have agreed with who hold opposite views to mine! (thinks 'Must be more careful....') ------------------

09-16-2001, 02:44 AM	#180
Cloudbringer Ironworks Moderator Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Upstate NY USA Posts: 19,737	Nice post, John! I missed it earlier! Well worded! Cloudy ------------------ Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..."

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